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Was I right to fold here?

Asho28Asho28 Member Posts: 763
edited June 2020 in Poker Chat
Evening all,

Bit of a awkward spot in a 2p/4p cash game earlier and would like some advice on whether I should be folding this.

Whilst it would be easy to just shove all in for the sake of 4 quid, I'm interested to know what other players would've have done here, particularly if it was a tournament or higher stakes game. I had at least one of my opponents on a higher pair given the action before me, hence I crumbled.

Naturally, I got my nose well and truly rubbed in it by the time we reached the river, but I guess it's just one of those things.

Still fairly new to online poker and trying to learn and improve my game, so despite the trivial amount of money involved, I would appreciate some opinions on whether I played this scenario correctly or incorrectly.

Many thanks,

Asho

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
Asho28Small blind£0.02£0.02£7.48
golftenBig blind£0.04£0.06£1.71
Your hole cards
  • J
  • J
AGK6Raise£0.12£0.18£5.86
Malps17Raise£0.36£0.54£4.39
jacksshawFold
WINKY911Raise£1.26£1.80£5.14
Asho28Fold
golftenFold
AGK6Fold
Malps17Call£0.90£2.70£3.49
Flop
  • J
  • 4
  • 5
Malps17Check
WINKY911Check
Turn
  • J
Malps17Check
WINKY911Check
River
  • 10
Malps17Check
WINKY911Check
Malps17Show
  • A
  • K
WINKY911Show
  • A
  • K
Malps17WinPair of Jacks£1.25£4.74
WINKY911WinPair of Jacks£1.24£6.38

Comments

  • goldnballzgoldnballz Member Posts: 2,789
    edited June 2020
    As primarily a tournament player, sat with 100+BB in the SB facing an utg raise, then 3b, then 4b, I'd be running for cover with JJ, most of the time.

    In a cash game I'd probably call/raise all-in & then reload :D
  • MP33MP33 Member Posts: 6,235
    Very much depends on the player.

    if its a reg who,s 4 bet i,m folding. If they,ve been going crazy before i,m jamming.

    GL
  • CammykazeCammykaze Member Posts: 1,397
    I'm with goldnballz here and typing as more of a SNG player than a cash game player.

    At these stakes, with this action in front of you I would expect to see your JJ beat a fair bit pre-flop unless the table is going nuts. It's a shove or fold for me and shoving seems too risky without additional information.

    Did you have reads on opponents prior to this hand?

    Cammy
  • Asho28Asho28 Member Posts: 763
    Thanks for your feedback all.
    Cammykaze said:

    I'm with goldnballz here and typing as more of a SNG player than a cash game player.

    At these stakes, with this action in front of you I would expect to see your JJ beat a fair bit pre-flop unless the table is going nuts. It's a shove or fold for me and shoving seems too risky without additional information.

    Did you have reads on opponents prior to this hand?

    Cammy

    @Cammykaze - In terms of my opponents, I regularly play against Malps at 2p/4p level. A good guy and a decent player, and we often discuss hands in the chat box. Isn't usually too aggressive and cannot recall him re-raising without justification before, so I have to give him credit for a strong Ace at the very least. Obviously pocket pairs from 10s-Aces are feasible too.

    Also see WINKY on the tables regularly. Fairly tight playing style. Usually comes in with a raise of 16p or folds the hand. Given the size of the three-bet I'm putting him on QQ, KK, AK or AA, three of which are miles ahead of my hand.

    I also forgot to mention that I ran QQ and KK into Aces last week (and lost the hands), so that probably played a part in my decision to fold.

    I think based on the above comments, I think a fold isn't unreasonable here, although a shove would probably have some merit too. I had a stack of about 180 big blinds at the time, so seemed reasonable to abandon this particular hand. If it had been a tourney (e.g a bounty hunter), I may well have shoved.

    I am surprised that both my opponents didn't go all in preflop, however, and in the end the hand just fizzled out.

    A bit of a strange one.

    Asho
  • MattBatesMattBates Member Posts: 4,118
    edited June 2020
    Don't think of it as a trivial amount of money when analysing plays. The stakes are relevant for player tendencies but if you play and think of it as not being a significant amount of money then I think you will play too loose and justify bad shoves/calls by saying its only £4 etc. Always think in terms of bb.

    I have hardly played any 100bb cash so there will be loads of players who will be better placed to assist but for what its worth I would be folding here without any reads that players were extremely aggressive. Also, try not to be results orientated once you see opponents hands. It is about the range of hands an opponent will have rather than the specific hand the opponent has in this one hand.

  • craigcu12craigcu12 Member Posts: 3,960
    edited June 2020
    I play cash a lot, this hand here is a snap fold pre especially at your stakes.
    EP MP and the BTN will all have narrow ranges.
    MP normally 3bets JJ+ AQ+ ATs+ and KQs but at nl4 even that is too wide, at nl4 most players will 3bet QQ KK AA and AK.
    BTN 4bet is extremely tight for sure, QQ+ AK, even at the high stakes these cold 4bets won't get than many weaker combos cold 4betting.

    The other problem is when you do call EP or MP could then go on to 5bet shove and given the ranges that is gonna happen more often especially MP.

    If I myself were in your shoes I'd be cry calling with KK. QQ or worse is a fold since neither MP or BTN will have much you dominate, you don't have the odds to hit set and your are not gonna be happy stacking off post flop.

    your equity vs QQ+ AK is 36% but that's assuming EP or MP didn't 5bet AI and nobody bet postflop.
    As played you can see yourself AK didn't bet at all post flop, AA KK and QQ all will for sure, assume the board was T high or worse you are gonna X/C losing full stack to the better OP unless you do lots of folding post flop.

    As mattbates said, don't be too results orientated, think about the long term picture how you will do vs the opponents ranges. So much bad stuff can happen, by calling the 4bet. MP might 5bet, you call 4bet then X/C post flop as JJ OP losing full stack to AA, you call the 4bet then X/F post flop or you fail to win more vs AK as it decides to give up post flop. even hitting your set isn't always good as you could lose to a better set or an AK straight.
  • Asho28Asho28 Member Posts: 763
    MattBates said:

    Don't think of it as a trivial amount of money when analysing plays. The stakes are relevant for player tendencies but if you play and think of it as not being a significant amount of money then I think you will play too loose and justify bad shoves/calls by saying its only £4 etc. Always think in terms of bb.

    I have hardly played any 100bb cash so there will be loads of players who will be better placed to assist but for what its worth I would be folding here without any reads that players were extremely aggressive. Also, try not to be results orientated once you see opponents hands. It is about the range of hands an opponent will have rather than the specific hand the opponent has in this one hand.

    100% agree that the stakes shouldn't dictate how loosely I play. I try to play every hand the same way regardless of stakes/format/tournament. It was more because most of the hands I see posted on here are for higher stakes games with significantly larger pots - I didn't know how people would perceive me asking for advice on a 2p/4p game, hence why I referred to it as "trivial". Regardless, I was still looking for advice on what the correct course of action was, and pleasingly you've all provided great feedback which I can learn a lot from.

    With regards to being results orientated, that definitely can be a flaw in my game. When considering what hands an opponent might be jamming/raising me with, I sometimes think of what they are beating me with, rather than what range of hands they could have. I need to realise that losing the hand doesn't necessarily mean I played it badly.

    Thanks Matt
  • Asho28Asho28 Member Posts: 763
    craigcu12 said:

    I play cash a lot, this hand here is a snap fold pre especially at your stakes.
    EP MP and the BTN will all have narrow ranges.
    MP normally 3bets JJ+ AQ+ ATs+ and KQs but at nl4 even that is too wide, at nl4 most players will 3bet QQ KK AA and AK.
    BTN 4bet is extremely tight for sure, QQ+ AK, even at the high stakes these cold 4bets won't get than many weaker combos cold 4betting.

    The other problem is when you do call EP or MP could then go on to 5bet shove and given the ranges that is gonna happen more often especially MP.

    If I myself were in your shoes I'd be cry calling with KK. QQ or worse is a fold since neither MP or BTN will have much you dominate, you don't have the odds to hit set and your are not gonna be happy stacking off post flop.

    your equity vs QQ+ AK is 36% but that's assuming EP or MP didn't 5bet AI and nobody bet postflop.
    As played you can see yourself AK didn't bet at all post flop, AA KK and QQ all will for sure, assume the board was T high or worse you are gonna X/C losing full stack to the better OP unless you do lots of folding post flop.

    As mattbates said, don't be too results orientated, think about the long term picture how you will do vs the opponents ranges. So much bad stuff can happen, by calling the 4bet. MP might 5bet, you call 4bet then X/C post flop as JJ OP losing full stack to AA, you call the 4bet then X/F post flop or you fail to win more vs AK as it decides to give up post flop. even hitting your set isn't always good as you could lose to a better set or an AK straight.

    Thanks for the detailed analysis Craig, much appreciated.

    Pleasing that I made the correct fold, based on your experience of cash games.

    I certainly wouldn't be calling with JJ in any circumstances; it would be an all in or fold. Like you say, if I call and end up reaching the flop without an all-in occurring, a 10 high flop is gonna result in me losing my stack if one of my opponents has a higher pocket pair, which in this scenario is likely.
    Ultimately, although I would've been good in this particular hand, I think it's clear that a fold pre-flop here is the right play over time, especially at these stakes like you alluded to.

    Should either of the AK hands have shoved or is taking a flop okay here?
  • craigcu12craigcu12 Member Posts: 3,960
    edited June 2020
    Asho28 said:

    craigcu12 said:

    I play cash a lot, this hand here is a snap fold pre especially at your stakes.
    EP MP and the BTN will all have narrow ranges.
    MP normally 3bets JJ+ AQ+ ATs+ and KQs but at nl4 even that is too wide, at nl4 most players will 3bet QQ KK AA and AK.
    BTN 4bet is extremely tight for sure, QQ+ AK, even at the high stakes these cold 4bets won't get than many weaker combos cold 4betting.

    The other problem is when you do call EP or MP could then go on to 5bet shove and given the ranges that is gonna happen more often especially MP.

    If I myself were in your shoes I'd be cry calling with KK. QQ or worse is a fold since neither MP or BTN will have much you dominate, you don't have the odds to hit set and your are not gonna be happy stacking off post flop.

    your equity vs QQ+ AK is 36% but that's assuming EP or MP didn't 5bet AI and nobody bet postflop.
    As played you can see yourself AK didn't bet at all post flop, AA KK and QQ all will for sure, assume the board was T high or worse you are gonna X/C losing full stack to the better OP unless you do lots of folding post flop.

    As mattbates said, don't be too results orientated, think about the long term picture how you will do vs the opponents ranges. So much bad stuff can happen, by calling the 4bet. MP might 5bet, you call 4bet then X/C post flop as JJ OP losing full stack to AA, you call the 4bet then X/F post flop or you fail to win more vs AK as it decides to give up post flop. even hitting your set isn't always good as you could lose to a better set or an AK straight.

    Thanks for the detailed analysis Craig, much appreciated.

    Pleasing that I made the correct fold, based on your experience of cash games.

    I certainly wouldn't be calling with JJ in any circumstances; it would be an all in or fold. Like you say, if I call and end up reaching the flop without an all-in occurring, a 10 high flop is gonna result in me losing my stack if one of my opponents has a higher pocket pair, which in this scenario is likely.
    Ultimately, although I would've been good in this particular hand, I think it's clear that a fold pre-flop here is the right play over time, especially at these stakes like you alluded to.

    Should either of the AK hands have shoved or is taking a flop okay here?
    It was ok for AK to do a cold 4bet pre he blocks the AA KK combos, he is flipping against QQ and JJ, he also dominates AQ AJs and KQs (although it's highly unlikely they will 3bet at this stakes) the plan is 4bet with intent to fold if the blinds EP or MP go AI since they should be doing it with just QQ+.

    That AK in MP should be folding against this 4bet especially at this stake, BTN is most certainly not gonna cold 4bet as a bluff. Even on higher stakes that AK is probably a fold, because people know ranges and in this spot both EP and MP will be strong and tight therefore BTN is not gonna do many cold 4bet bluffs.

    Nobody can Go AI without worse than QQ and even that is sometimes folded (especially if you in the blinds yet to act), your fold equity is really low in this spot since ranges are extremely tight and when they do call your AK and JJ are gonna be dominated almost everytime.
  • LARSON7LARSON7 Member Posts: 4,491
    edited July 2020
    Hi Asho,

    Craig covered it off well, yes it's a fold.

    If you had QQ you might have more of a decision, but this most likely would still be a fold.

    And don't worry to much about the outcome of a hand once you have folded.

    Well done, given the heavy action, in finding the correct fold.
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