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Trains.

HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 31,519
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  • CammykazeCammykaze Member Posts: 1,397
    Bad news on top of bad news. I just dander around these days and check with the updates to see what's happening.

    Newspapers are quite doom and gloom for the most part.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 7,958
    I just don't get why the newspapers only ever tell 1 side of a story.

    The Rail Companies are allowed to put fares up by at least inflation, and sometimes more than that.

    At the same time, many of them are refusing to give their workers any sort of pay rise. In addition, various Rail Companies are seeking to scrap the Final Salary Pension schemes. This can lead to an effective pay cut of as much as 25%.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/pension-scheme-london-underground-staff-strike-b984546.html

    So. The Rail Companies expect the taxpayer to give them a pay rise via fares. While drastically reducing costs. Not only on pay/pensions-proposing at least 2,500 redundancies in relation to track maintenance, on top of the largely unmanned rural stations.

    The Rail companies are not discussing these proposed changes. They are implementing them disregarding any consultation. In order to make staff poorer. And shareholders richer.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 31,519
    Essexphil said:

    I just don't get why the newspapers only ever tell 1 side of a story.

    The Rail Companies are allowed to put fares up by at least inflation, and sometimes more than that.

    At the same time, many of them are refusing to give their workers any sort of pay rise. In addition, various Rail Companies are seeking to scrap the Final Salary Pension schemes. This can lead to an effective pay cut of as much as 25%.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/pension-scheme-london-underground-staff-strike-b984546.html

    So. The Rail Companies expect the taxpayer to give them a pay rise via fares. While drastically reducing costs. Not only on pay/pensions-proposing at least 2,500 redundancies in relation to track maintenance, on top of the largely unmanned rural stations.

    The Rail companies are not discussing these proposed changes. They are implementing them disregarding any consultation. In order to make staff poorer. And shareholders richer.


    What is the average salary for Railway jobs?
    The average salary for Railway jobs is £45,000.

    Read on to find out how much Railway jobs pay across various UK locations and industries.
    AVERAGE
    £45,000
    Sample size 414
    https://www.totaljobs.com/salary-checker/average-railway-salary



    Here are some of the salaries reported by drivers working for the main operators in the UK:

    Great Western Railway: £24k to £61k
    Southeastern Railway: £50k to £58k
    London Underground: £58k to £62k
    Arriva Group: £48k to £102k
    Govia Thameslink Railway: £23k to £65k
    London Overground: £58k to £66k
    South Western Railway: £53k to £70k
    Transport for London: £58k to £62k
    Crosscountry Trains: £65k to £70k
    ScotRail: £51k to £57k
    East Midlands Trains: £53k to £70k
    Northern Rail: £41k to £58k
    Abellio: £47k to £50k

    Normally you will need to be over 20 years old to work on the national rail network or over 18 for the Tube.
    What qualifications do you need to become a train driver?
    There are no specific entry requirements




    Do you get paid while training to become a train driver?
    Yes, drivers are employed while they are training and get paid the entry salary for that operator.

    The training schemes normally last between nine and 18 months.

    London Underground's training course lasts for 22 weeks.

    LU trainees start on a salary of around £24,000, which almost doubles when they become fully qualified.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7019221/train-drivers-salary-become-a-train-driver/



    What is the Average Salary in the Rail and Transport Industry in 2020?
    The average rail salary in the UK in 2020 is £45,472 per annum and the average hourly rate is £14.62.

    There is a smaller variation between hourly rates in hourly PAYE rates, with the lowest being £11.50 for a Labourer, to the highest, £15.00 for Groundworkers.

    Comparing day-rate vs hourly-rate for the Rail & Transport industry
    In this industry, there are a lot of workers who work on a non-PAYE basis, as opposed to salaries or hourly PAYE. For the hourly (non-PAYE) rate, the average in the UK is £17.12 per hour. This ranges from £13.53 per hour for a Labourer, to £25.67 per hour for Electricians and covers roles such as Steel Erectors, where the average hourly rate is £21.52 and Signallers, with an average rate of £16.00 per hour.

    When looking at hourly and day rates, it is important to consider that these will often differ due to factors, this could be from company-to-company or the current state of the industry.

    It is important to note that these figures do not take bonuses or benefits, such as a travel allowance, into account.

    Average Salary per City:
    It is common for salaries in most industries to depend on each location, this is also true for the rail industry, with variation from city to city.

    City

    Average Salary

    Salary Range

    Birmingham

    £61,089

    £47,500-£72,500

    Derby

    £57,500

    £52,500-£57,500

    Bristol

    £53,809

    £38,750-£57,500

    York

    £47,500

    £42,500-£57,500

    Glasgow

    £42,500

    £42,500-£47,500

    South West London

    £42,500

    £37,500-£56,078

    South East London

    £42,500

    £26,244-£45,000

    Manchester

    £37,500

    £30,000-£47,500

    https://www.linearrecruitment.co.uk/news/highest-paying-railway-jobs
  • CammykazeCammykaze Member Posts: 1,397
    edited June 2022
    On the topic itself.

    Striking Train workers I cannot really get behind. The wages and conditions I believe are very good and there are NHS staff and support workers I would completely get behind if they strike.

    Being a bit more blunt about it - they have a fecking cheek and are helping pile more misery onto people trying to get to work/visit family and friends etc.

    Don't have the time for the staff talking of strikes and doing them for this main reason.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 7,958
    An old article. But 1 that shows where your money (ie the taxpayer) really goes.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5149220/the-top-10-best-paid-civil-servants-all-work-in-the-rail-industry/

    Read anything about these posts being reduced? Or salaries frozen? Of course not.

    That only applies to the people who do the work.
  • CammykazeCammykaze Member Posts: 1,397
    edited June 2022
    Essexphil said:

    I just don't get why the newspapers only ever tell 1 side of a story.

    The Rail Companies are allowed to put fares up by at least inflation, and sometimes more than that.

    At the same time, many of them are refusing to give their workers any sort of pay rise. In addition, various Rail Companies are seeking to scrap the Final Salary Pension schemes. This can lead to an effective pay cut of as much as 25%.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/pension-scheme-london-underground-staff-strike-b984546.html

    So. The Rail Companies expect the taxpayer to give them a pay rise via fares. While drastically reducing costs. Not only on pay/pensions-proposing at least 2,500 redundancies in relation to track maintenance, on top of the largely unmanned rural stations.

    The Rail companies are not discussing these proposed changes. They are implementing them disregarding any consultation. In order to make staff poorer. And shareholders richer.

    And yes I wrote my post prior to reading yours, balance is key as well as more information needed to judge reasonably. Totally on-board with newspapers giving one side to the story and likely have said before have no time for the press. They stir up the public's emotion (mine's included as you see haha!) with surface level stuff to get baying crowd to focus their fury at with little context.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 7,958
    edited June 2022
    Cammykaze said:

    Essexphil said:

    I just don't get why the newspapers only ever tell 1 side of a story.

    The Rail Companies are allowed to put fares up by at least inflation, and sometimes more than that.

    At the same time, many of them are refusing to give their workers any sort of pay rise. In addition, various Rail Companies are seeking to scrap the Final Salary Pension schemes. This can lead to an effective pay cut of as much as 25%.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/pension-scheme-london-underground-staff-strike-b984546.html

    So. The Rail Companies expect the taxpayer to give them a pay rise via fares. While drastically reducing costs. Not only on pay/pensions-proposing at least 2,500 redundancies in relation to track maintenance, on top of the largely unmanned rural stations.

    The Rail companies are not discussing these proposed changes. They are implementing them disregarding any consultation. In order to make staff poorer. And shareholders richer.

    And yes I wrote my post prior to reading yours, balance is key as well as more information needed to judge reasonably. Totally on-board with newspapers giving one side to the story and likely have said before have no time for the press. They stir up the public's emotion (mine's included as you see haha!) with surface level stuff to get baying crowd to focus their fury at with little context.
    There are 2 sides to the story. Very much so.

    Some Trade Union bosses are all about what is best for themselves. Not their Members.

    Exactly the same as some Managers and their Customers.

    Both sides are, at least to some extent, playing their little games. With our money.
  • CammykazeCammykaze Member Posts: 1,397
    edited June 2022
    Essexphil said:

    Cammykaze said:

    Essexphil said:

    I just don't get why the newspapers only ever tell 1 side of a story.

    The Rail Companies are allowed to put fares up by at least inflation, and sometimes more than that.

    At the same time, many of them are refusing to give their workers any sort of pay rise. In addition, various Rail Companies are seeking to scrap the Final Salary Pension schemes. This can lead to an effective pay cut of as much as 25%.

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/pension-scheme-london-underground-staff-strike-b984546.html

    So. The Rail Companies expect the taxpayer to give them a pay rise via fares. While drastically reducing costs. Not only on pay/pensions-proposing at least 2,500 redundancies in relation to track maintenance, on top of the largely unmanned rural stations.

    The Rail companies are not discussing these proposed changes. They are implementing them disregarding any consultation. In order to make staff poorer. And shareholders richer.

    And yes I wrote my post prior to reading yours, balance is key as well as more information needed to judge reasonably. Totally on-board with newspapers giving one side to the story and likely have said before have no time for the press. They stir up the public's emotion (mine's included as you see haha!) with surface level stuff to get baying crowd to focus their fury at with little context.
    There are 2 sides to the story. Very much so.

    Some Trade Union bosses are all about what is best for themselves. Not their Members.

    Exactly the same as some Managers and their Customers.

    Both sides are, at least to some extent, playing their little games. With our money.
    Yip, all short term selfish thinking and nothing for the greater good. Mercenaries, pure rubbish and angersome! :angry:
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 31,519
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 31,519
    An anti-monarchist union firebrand whose profile picture is evil Thunderbirds mastermind: Train strikes will have a devastating impact... but Mick Lynch seems to take an almost sadistic pleasure in the upheaval, writes ANDREW PIERCE



    ANDREW PIERCE: Yet far from being apologetic, Lynch, 60, seems to take an almost sadistic pleasure in the upheaval the industrial action will cause. Warning of the 'biggest strike in modern history' he said its effects would be felt 'from the north of Scotland down to the tip of Cornwall, from Wick to Penzance'. He adds: 'The unions have got to make a militant stand - and use the strike weapon wherever it's appropriate.' Lynch has certainly had plenty of experience of deploying the strike weapon. In the past three years, the RMT has balloted for strike action on no fewer than 204 occasions, even managing to clock up 49 strike votes in 2020 when Covid shut down much of the rail industry. These figures underline the union's reputation as the most militant in the country.


    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10898157/Mick-Lynch-sadistic-pleasure-upheaval-writes-ANDREW-PIERCE.html
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 7,958
    Stop believing everything you read in the Mail. It is exactly the same as believing everything in the Morning Star.

    Let's look briefly at one of the issues behind the strikes-the Final Salary Pension Scheme.

    When large parts of the Railway were franchised out, various rules were put into place to protect the workers. This included an obligation to maintain, and fund, the Final Salary scheme.

    In 2020, the Government announced that the Franchising system was to be scrapped at some point in the future. Emergency Measure Agreements (EMAs) were implemented-first for 6 months, then extended.

    The franchise model has been replaced with new agreements, on a "concession" basis. A private company (closely resembling a Quango), "Great British Railways" was created. There was a "guarantee" that the Government would pay certain operators' costs.

    Which leaves the obvious questions

    -what happened to the "guarantees" on privatisation? (which was the central plank on allowing it in the first place)
    -why is the Government ignoring the fact that all 3 categories-franchisees, concessions and Government-run services-appear now to have changed course? Because a Government appears to be ignoring a Government guarantee.

    When you look at organisations like Network Rail. The top management are Civil Servants. Whose 6 and 7-figure pay packets include a Final Salary Pension Scheme.

    While they try and dismantle the protections of everyone else.
  • tai-gartai-gar Member Posts: 2,578
    Final salary pension schemes were never likely to be affordable.

    Private sector pensions have suffered tremendously over the past 15 years. Public sector final salary schemes will inevitably have to follow suit.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 7,958
    edited June 2022
    tai-gar said:

    Final salary pension schemes were never likely to be affordable.

    Private sector pensions have suffered tremendously over the past 15 years. Public sector final salary schemes will inevitably have to follow suit.

    At some stage, yes.

    Although there is little sign so far-presumably because the "Public Sector" includes (surprise, surprise) MPs. And their cronies who run things for them.

    Plus any moves to change "Civil Servants" pensions when it includes the likes of the Police and Armed Forces have been met with stiff resistance. The NHS will be a real vote winner.

    If Government wishes to abandon Public Sector Final Salary schemes, fine. I can see major problems in relation to pay, retention of staff etc-but the price may well be worth it. Because the costs are massive-although increases in inflation will lessen that to some extent. Even though it creates an enormous problem in relation to future pensioners claiming far more benefits than before.

    What I object to is doing it by the back door. Don't privatise it and blame the new employer when it was Government that allowed it to happen.

    The Railways being a classic example-transferred with protections, and then lie about breaking those promises later.
  • tai-gartai-gar Member Posts: 2,578
    Essexphil said:

    tai-gar said:

    Final salary pension schemes were never likely to be affordable.

    Private sector pensions have suffered tremendously over the past 15 years. Public sector final salary schemes will inevitably have to follow suit.

    At some stage, yes.

    Although there is little sign so far-presumably because the "Public Sector" includes (surprise, surprise) MPs. And their cronies who run things for them.

    Plus any moves to change "Civil Servants" pensions when it includes the likes of the Police and Armed Forces have been met with stiff resistance. The NHS will be a real vote winner.

    If Government wishes to abandon Public Sector Final Salary schemes, fine. I can see major problems in relation to pay, retention of staff etc-but the price may well be worth it. Because the costs are massive-although increases in inflation will lessen that to some extent. Even though it creates an enormous problem in relation to future pensioners claiming far more benefits than before.

    What I object to is doing it by the back door. Don't privatise it and blame the new employer when it was Government that allowed it to happen.

    The Railways being a classic example-transferred with protections, and then lie about breaking those promises later.
    I agree entirely particularly with the items in bold.

    They know that final salary pension schemes can never be affordable but once again have no idea how to get out of them.
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 7,958
    edited June 2022
    The first stage would be to close the DB schemes to new employees at a fixed date in the future.

    Because that will save an absolute fortune.

    At 1 stage, one of my previous employers was paying in 34% of my annual Salary. While I was paying in 2%.

    Also worth pointing out that that scheme, although very generous, was not as good as police/army schemes.
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 31,519
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 31,519
    Essexphil said:

    An old article. But 1 that shows where your money (ie the taxpayer) really goes.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5149220/the-top-10-best-paid-civil-servants-all-work-in-the-rail-industry/

    Read anything about these posts being reduced? Or salaries frozen? Of course not.

    That only applies to the people who do the work.

    Confidence vote, rail strikes and Jeremy Hunt rile up Telegraph readers this week





    Summer of discontent

    The biggest rail strike in more than 30 years has been announced as 50,000 staff are to walk out over three days in June, threatening Glastonbury Festival and two crucial by-elections. The news enraged our readers with many highlighting how the strike could be counter-productive and might instead kill off demand for rail services.

    @David Paine:

    "The rail strike will accelerate remote working; it will boost the prospects of provincial towns with good road networks and buses, and will make people think twice about travelling by rail for leisure. All of which will help kill off demand for rail services and the jobs of the strikers that are supposed to be running them.

    "What is the point of investing in a concept like HS2 when you can be held to ransom by the unions? I shan't be renewing my railcard."

    @David Patterson:

    "I’m fed up with the rail and teaching unions in particular holding this country to ransom with unreasonable demands. Broadly speaking, public sector workers do very well compared to millions in the private sector who don’t get anywhere near as much help to make ends meet or to make provision for their futures. It’s about time it was made illegal for key service workers to strike."


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/confidence-vote-rail-strikes-and-jeremy-hunt-rile-up-telegraph-readers-this-week/ar-AAYi7hk?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=ffd7854e6663456abe93bf08b1c4f7e4
  • HAYSIEHAYSIE Member Posts: 31,519
    Essexphil said:

    An old article. But 1 that shows where your money (ie the taxpayer) really goes.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5149220/the-top-10-best-paid-civil-servants-all-work-in-the-rail-industry/

    Read anything about these posts being reduced? Or salaries frozen? Of course not.

    That only applies to the people who do the work.

    Train drivers threatening strikes have had pay rises 20 times the rate of average workers


    https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/careersandeducation/train-drivers-threatening-strikes-have-had-pay-rises-20-times-the-rate-of-average-workers/ar-AAYjdz0?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=d76e7f20f1694362f7a452355d757f0f
  • EssexphilEssexphil Member Posts: 7,958
    Ah. The Telegraph.

    The paper that caters for the educated, retired Right winger who regards the Daily Mail as not Right Wing enough. People whose first sentence on pretty much everything is "in my day"...

    Let's start with some basic Maths. One minute this article is talking about "average" pay. Then casually morphs into "median" pay. Which is it? They are totally different measures, with totally different results.

    Then move on to the mangling of the English Language to try and prove a point.

    Network Rail employees represent a small fraction of "rail operatives"-they are the people who work for the old British Rail in roles other than the Franchisees etc. And (of course) include the Government-led Senior Civil Servants I mentioned earlier. So-of course-that small section earn rather more than the larger group.

    It is about time Newspapers (and politicians) stopped trotting out salaries of teachers, nurses and PMs every time.

    Firstly, because these are not equivalent jobs-because, if they were, all those people would have claims.

    Secondly, it always ignores the other factors. So-lots of teachers become better-paid Head Teachers (and their salary is pro rated to take into account longer holidays), Nurses go up in Pay Bands/Job Titles, PMs earn more when they retire etc.

    Turning briefly to drivers. More pay is always a factor. But rather more at the forefront of their minds will be driverless trains and the proposed redundancies of 2,500 people who make the track safe. And, of course, not wanting to drive trains on days when the signals and track are largely being maintained by people with no training or experience.

    Funny how these papers never mention the additional risks passengers and staff are running on the trains that do run on strike days.

    Again. The Telegraph is exactly the reverse of the Morning Star.
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