See now this is typical biased reporting and shows how the figures are manipulated.
London, Peterborough and Stockport.
Ok so in the Referendum both London and Stockport voted remain with only Peterborough voting to leave. Hardly surprising then that focussing on those 3 areas would produce support to rejoin.
Also the pollsters claim that this is a Nationally representative survey. Well I've yet to meet anybody who has been asked about this by any survey group whether online or in person.
I'm going to assume that they didn't stand outside the benefit offices and ask although they may well have interviewed on Uni campus, which will further skew the findings so pardon me if I find those claims slightly spurious.
I feel that this is akin to asking the prison population for its opinions on law and order and then rolling out a headline saying that 80% of the country want the police and courts to have less powers.
It may be Nationally representative but it isn't an honest or fair reflection is it.
Support to undo Brexit hits new heights, ahead of ‘March to Rejoin’ With large-scale, pro-EU protests set to hit London next month, UK citizens seem to have lost patience with Brexit.
See now this is typical biased reporting and shows how the figures are manipulated.
London, Peterborough and Stockport.
Ok so in the Referendum both London and Stockport voted remain with only Peterborough voting to leave. Hardly surprising then that focussing on those 3 areas would produce support to rejoin.
Also the pollsters claim that this is a Nationally representative survey. Well I've yet to meet anybody who has been asked about this by any survey group whether online or in person.
I'm going to assume that they didn't stand outside the benefit offices and ask although they may well have interviewed on Uni campus, which will further skew the findings so pardon me if I find those claims slightly spurious.
I feel that this is akin to asking the prison population for its opinions on law and order and then rolling out a headline saying that 80% of the country want the police and courts to have less powers.
It may be Nationally representative but it isn't an honest or fair reflection is it.
Britons who want to rejoin EU at highest levels since 2016, survey finds Data showed 58% would vote to re-enter bloc, while respondents said they trusted the European Commission more than the UK government
See now this is typical biased reporting and shows how the figures are manipulated.
London, Peterborough and Stockport.
Ok so in the Referendum both London and Stockport voted remain with only Peterborough voting to leave. Hardly surprising then that focussing on those 3 areas would produce support to rejoin.
Also the pollsters claim that this is a Nationally representative survey. Well I've yet to meet anybody who has been asked about this by any survey group whether online or in person.
I'm going to assume that they didn't stand outside the benefit offices and ask although they may well have interviewed on Uni campus, which will further skew the findings so pardon me if I find those claims slightly spurious.
I feel that this is akin to asking the prison population for its opinions on law and order and then rolling out a headline saying that 80% of the country want the police and courts to have less powers.
It may be Nationally representative but it isn't an honest or fair reflection is it.
Brexit: Rejoining EU takes record 14-point lead in latest poll Economic problems driving support for reversing Brexit ‘mistake’
But, it's how these numbers are arrived at and where they were reportedly collected that I am questioning.
Remember that 64% of statistics are made up the other 59% may have some validity.
I could canvas the opinion of every supporter at a Stoke game say between 16,000 - 20,000 fans and then say that 75% of Stoke fans agree with the decision to sack the manger, because 12,000 - 16,000 said yes.
But that's without considering the 70,000 + supporters who only attend occasionally.
Statistically I would be right but if you factor in the occasional fan the consensus is reduced to between 14 and 20%
It's not truly representative no matter what language you dress it up in.
Also I feel that how you phrase a question can have an impact on the response. Something again that surveys and study groups are very good at doing, then presenting the answer to a question that wasn't actually asked as an answer to the question you say it represents.
But, it's how these numbers are arrived at and where they were reportedly collected that I am questioning.
Remember that 64% of statistics are made up the other 59% may have some validity.
I could canvas the opinion of every supporter at a Stoke game say between 16,000 - 20,000 fans and then say that 75% of Stoke fans agree with the decision to sack the manger, because 12,000 - 16,000 said yes.
But that's without considering the 70,000 + supporters who only attend occasionally.
Statistically I would be right but if you factor in the occasional fan the consensus is reduced to between 14 and 20%
It's not truly representative no matter what language you dress it up in.
Also I feel that how you phrase a question can have an impact on the response. Something again that surveys and study groups are very good at doing, then presenting the answer to a question that wasn't actually asked as an answer to the question you say it represents.
Experts and pollsters were saying that there was a majority in favour of re-joining, before we actually left. This was purely based on old fogey Brexiteers dying, and youngsters who were in favour of the EU, getting the vote. Here we are 7 years after the referendum, and you can add to this, those that have realised that Brexit hasnt turned out as expected. Hence the growing majority in favour of re-joining. Where are all the trade deals? How is controlling our borders going? What about cheaper food prices? Etc, etc,etc.
We left the EU with no idea what to do next. People voted to leave on a non-existent wish list.
Polls now say we want to rejoin. Again, without any knowledge as to the price for so doing, or even knowing whether the EU would allow it. No knowledge as to whether would have to join the Single Army, the Euro, how many squillions we would have to pay.
To my mind, only shows one thing. That politics should be done by politicians. Not uninformed voters.
We left the EU with no idea what to do next. People voted to leave on a non-existent wish list.
Polls now say we want to rejoin. Again, without any knowledge as to the price for so doing, or even knowing whether the EU would allow it. No knowledge as to whether would have to join the Single Army, the Euro, how many squillions we would have to pay.
To my mind, only shows one thing. That politics should be done by politicians. Not uninformed voters.
I wouldnt disagree. I think the EU would be happy to see us returning. I have said a number of times that if the actual terms and conditions for re-joining were known, then the majority in favour may well be wiped out. The referendum was a bad idea, that was poorly managed. At the very least there should have been a requirement for a super-majority.
I would like to see the UK promoting a genuine alternative to the EU.
A return to the EEC. Primarily an Economic Community. Not a European superstate.
I believe a sizeable majority, both within the UK and Europe, want to retain National identity while wanting the economic benefits the EEC will bring. Aligning various economic principles, without sacrificing who we are.
I would like to see the UK promoting a genuine alternative to the EU.
A return to the EEC. Primarily an Economic Community. Not a European superstate.
I believe a sizeable majority, both within the UK and Europe, want to retain National identity while wanting the economic benefits the EEC will bring. Aligning various economic principles, without sacrificing who we are.
I havent a clue about who thinks what. We were members for the vast majority of my lifetime. I never felt that being members impinged upon my National identity. Nor do I feel that my National identity has been somehow enhanced, since we have left.
What I do know is that there appears to be a growing majority in favour of re-joining. I dont think this will happen anytime soon. So the best we can probably hope for is a closer relationship.
It makes me laugh when our politicians trot out the "stronger together" argument when it comes to the UK, but completely lose sight of the same argument when it comes to the EU.
If we could banish the Great British superiority complex, we would probably be far more realistic about our prospects, and shortcomings. The youngsters of the future are likely to be more realistic.
We left the EU with no idea what to do next. People voted to leave on a non-existent wish list.
Polls now say we want to rejoin. Again, without any knowledge as to the price for so doing, or even knowing whether the EU would allow it. No knowledge as to whether would have to join the Single Army, the Euro, how many squillions we would have to pay.
To my mind, only shows one thing. That politics should be done by politicians. Not uninformed voters.
Agree but with one amendment;
That politics should be done by politicians that you can trust. Not uninformed voters.
We left the EU with no idea what to do next. People voted to leave on a non-existent wish list.
Polls now say we want to rejoin. Again, without any knowledge as to the price for so doing, or even knowing whether the EU would allow it. No knowledge as to whether would have to join the Single Army, the Euro, how many squillions we would have to pay.
To my mind, only shows one thing. That politics should be done by politicians. Not uninformed voters.
Agree but with one amendment;
That politics should be done by politicians that you can trust. Not uninformed voters.
Finding them could be the problem.
I honestly believe that it is possible to trust the majority of politicians. While I believe that the Conservative Governments since Johnson have probably contained the largest ever minority of corrupt politicians, it is still the case that (however much I may disagree with the politics of various politicians, they are genuinely trying to do what is right.
I despise the political views of the likes of Braverman and Corbyn. But they are genuinely trying to do what they believe is best for the Country. We increasingly live in a World where voters conflate "trust" with "do stuff they agree with".
There are plenty of people in the current Cabinet that I do not like. But that is not to say that they are not genuine. For example. Sunak and Gove.
However, 1 former Cabinet Minister shows how the current Conservative Party seek to promote people who are unfit to run a whelk stall. By which I mean Robert Jenrick.
He has been an MP for 9 years. Elected in 2014. By cheating on his Electoral expenses. As shown by the Fine levied by the Electoral Commission.
Tries to get everyone to forget he voted Remain.
Routinely attacks Solicitors. Forgets to mention he is a qualified Solicitor, or that his Wife is a Practising Solicitor.
While Housing Minister, forgot on several occasions that he had a conflict of interest while overruling Planning decisions to help out his friends. The worst of these was the £1Billion Westferry housing development, where he admitted in Court that his decision was "unlawful by reason of apparent bias"
Caught out on more than 1 occasion travelling to family in direct contravention of the Rules he propounded during Covid.
This is a man trying to become the next Leader of the Tory Party.
I would like to see the UK promoting a genuine alternative to the EU.
A return to the EEC. Primarily an Economic Community. Not a European superstate.
I believe a sizeable majority, both within the UK and Europe, want to retain National identity while wanting the economic benefits the EEC will bring. Aligning various economic principles, without sacrificing who we are.
Which brings me to another question.
Can you be both British and European? On a personal level I feel that you cannot although I know that others on here will argue vehemently against that.
For all the supposed benefits of membership I firmly believe that the EU always was, still is and always will be Anti British.
Until somebody can show me how My life and the lives of my kids and grandkids will be any better off under the EU then I will always hold that view. I struggle to see where membership created anything relevant to me that I didn't either have or couldn't have expected without membership..
I'm not talking about business, I'm not talking about finance, what has the EU ever done for ME.
I would like to see the UK promoting a genuine alternative to the EU.
A return to the EEC. Primarily an Economic Community. Not a European superstate.
I believe a sizeable majority, both within the UK and Europe, want to retain National identity while wanting the economic benefits the EEC will bring. Aligning various economic principles, without sacrificing who we are.
Which brings me to another question.
Can you be both British and European? On a personal level I feel that you cannot although I know that others on here will argue vehemently against that.
For all the supposed benefits of membership I firmly believe that the EU always was, still is and always will be Anti British.
Until somebody can show me how My life and the lives of my kids and grandkids will be any better off under the EU then I will always hold that view. I struggle to see where membership created anything relevant to me that I didn't either have or couldn't have expected without membership..
I'm not talking about business, I'm not talking about finance, what has the EU ever done for ME.
Can you be both British and European? Of course you can. Just like you can be English and British. Or Scots/Welsh/Northern Irish and British. Doesn't mean everybody has to be.
We all have our own dividing lines. Purely personally, I am happy to trust the EU on stuff like economic policies, and certain limited rules to integrate within our own Laws. Whereas I do not trust a European superstate, or a common Army.
What has the EU ever done for you? Let's take Stoke as an example (just in the 3 years before we left the EU):- -£2.2 million to Stoke Council to help Stoke/Staffs SMEs -£420k to Stoke Council for the ESF programme -£373k to Stoke Council for the ERDF programme -A roughly 10% share in the £1.6 million Ceramics project, to support EU ceramics heritage
It protected EU businesses from competition. It provided considerable economic benefits to each and every one of us. It provided freedom of movement for British people to retire to warmer countries. It provided a framework for dealing with refugees. It gave us rules that we have been unable to match to date.
Remind me. If you are just talking about you and your family, what has this Government ever done for you?
Have taxes gone down? No. Have our borders looked more secure? No. Has our Govt replaced the various EU Grants? No. Have all the "savings" on that side of that bus gone to the NHS or indeed anywhere we can see? No. Are we in a deeper recession with lower growth than all our direct EU rivals, such as Germany/France? Yes.
It didn't protect our coal or steel from competition. In fact the EU bought both from outside the bloc. Those two industries also accounted for thousands of jobs and whilst a little blood money was thrown our way to help create the Festival Park which hosted the National Garden Festival, that money might have been better used helping the Shelton Bar Steelworks and Rolling Mills and ensuring the future of the City.
Once the Bar closed the mines were sure to suffer as the demand for coal and coke which fired the processes was diminished, with the death knell being the EU betrayal of Britain's Coal Industry to subsidised Polish coal, and the Mines of the Schalke region of Germany.
People moving to warmer climates is all well and good but 2 things to say here. Move, but don't have your cake and eat it. You want to go live in Spain fine but apply to be a Spanish citizen or wherever you go. Secondly don't fly back for urgent NHS treatment, don't have a say in how this country is run and don't moan about whether your new country likes you. Warm climates have Nationalists too.
Your figures if correct show what, a supposed£3m investment over 3 years. Wow that really impacted ME and MINE in a positive way. £300m may have helped somewhat.
As for Ceramics, well that's about the only industry that we fkd up without the help of the EU. Spode, Doulton, Minton, Wedgewood, Moorcroft, Biltons, Woods, Twyffords, Wades, Byatts etc.
What's left, Steelite, Emma Bridgewater and Portmerion
As for refugees, well 3 of the 4 local hotels where as a family we would go for Sunday lunch or a celebration meal are no longer available as they are housing immigrants currently, and the 4th closed over Covid and is being bulldozed for houses for people who work in Manchester and Birmingham and want to commute.
No the Government has not made any difference either, hence my statement that the EU gave me nothing that I didn't already have or could get.
I can visit Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool, London, Leeds, Glasgow, Cardiff, Edinburgh and see where massive EU funded investment has created better Cities. I can visit Ireland and see where massive EU investment created a better road network.
I can also visit many areas around the Parisian Peripherique and feel right at home amidst the devastation of boarded up businesses, closed down venues, disused houses, rubbish strewn alleys, gangs of feral youth, wrecked buildings, burned out cars and hoards of rough sleeping people, drunks and addicts.
I look at my City as it was in the 70's and look at it now. From vibrance to wasteland, from hope to despair, from almost full employment to the synthetic drug Capital of Britain.
From my "Great City" to "Absolute Sh1thole" and that all happened on the EU's watch. The problem is Stoke on Trent is not alone.
When's that first flight to Rawanda, maybe I can go do missionary work.
It didn't protect our coal or steel from competition. In fact the EU bought both from outside the bloc. Those two industries also accounted for thousands of jobs and whilst a little blood money was thrown our way to help create the Festival Park which hosted the National Garden Festival, that money might have been better used helping the Shelton Bar Steelworks and Rolling Mills and ensuring the future of the City.
British Steel Limited is a long steel products business founded in 2016 with assets acquired from Tata Steel Europe by Greybull Capital, then acquired by Jingye Group in 2020.[3] The primary steel production site is Scunthorpe Steelworks, with rolling facilities at Skinningrove Steelworks, Teesside. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Steel_(2016–present)
Jingye completes acquisition of British Steel Jingye Group, a leading Chinese steelmaker, today heralded a successful future for British Steel after completing the acquisition of the company’s UK and Netherlands assets from the Official Receiver. https://britishsteel.co.uk/news/jingye-completes-acquisition-of-british-steel/
Once the Bar closed the mines were sure to suffer as the demand for coal and coke which fired the processes was diminished, with the death knell being the EU betrayal of Britain's Coal Industry to subsidised Polish coal, and the Mines of the Schalke region of Germany.
Between 1947 and 1994, some 950 mines were closed by UK governments. Clement Attlee’s Labour government closed 101 pits between 1947 and 1951; Macmillan (Conservative) closed 246 pits between 1957 and 1963; Wilson (Labour) closed 253 in his two terms in office between 1964 and 1976; Heath (Conservative) closed 26 between 1970 and 1974; and Thatcher (Conservative) closed 115 between 1979 and 1990.[40] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_mining_in_the_United_Kingdom
Coal mining in the United Kingdom dates back to Roman times and occurred in many different parts of the country. Britain's coalfields are associated with Northumberland and Durham, North and South Wales, Yorkshire, the Scottish Central Belt, Lancashire, Cumbria, the East and West Midlands and Kent. After 1972, coal mining quickly collapsed and had practically disappeared by the 21st century.[1] The consumption of coal—mostly for electricity—fell from 157 million tonnes in 1970 to 18 million tonnes in 2016, of which 77% (14 million tonnes) was imported from Colombia, Russia, and the United States.[2] Employment in coal mines fell from a peak of 1,191,000 in 1920 to 695,000 in 1956, 247,000 in 1976, 44,000 in 1993, and to 2,000 in 2015.[3]
People moving to warmer climates is all well and good but 2 things to say here. Move, but don't have your cake and eat it. You want to go live in Spain fine but apply to be a Spanish citizen or wherever you go. Secondly don't fly back for urgent NHS treatment, don't have a say in how this country is run and don't moan about whether your new country likes you. Warm climates have Nationalists too.
Some of the people that move abroad, do so for health reasons, rather than from choice. Many of them have worked their whole lives, and contributed to our economy, and NHS, by paying income tax, and NICs. In doing so, havent they earned the right to use the NHS? Incidentally, they are more likely to return to the UK for medical treatment since we have left. While we were members, we used to have an EHIC card.
Your figures if correct show what, a supposed£3m investment over 3 years. Wow that really impacted ME and MINE in a positive way. £300m may have helped somewhat.
I dont really understand what help you were expecting the EU to give you and yours? Any assistance from the EU was supposed to be in addition to that provided by the UK government. What have the UK government done since we left? I can get behind something if there is a benefit to our country, or if some sections of our society benefit, I dont have to personally benefit from everything I am prepared to support.
As for Ceramics, well that's about the only industry that we fkd up without the help of the EU. Spode, Doulton, Minton, Wedgewood, Moorcroft, Biltons, Woods, Twyffords, Wades, Byatts etc.
What's left, Steelite, Emma Bridgewater and Portmerion
Not blaming the EU?
As for refugees, well 3 of the 4 local hotels where as a family we would go for Sunday lunch or a celebration meal are no longer available as they are housing immigrants currently, and the 4th closed over Covid and is being bulldozed for houses for people who work in Manchester and Birmingham and want to commute.
People commute everywhere. How dare people fleeing persecution interfere with your Sunday lunch occasionally.
No the Government has not made any difference either, hence my statement that the EU gave me nothing that I didn't already have or could get.
What exactly were you expecting?
I can visit Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool, London, Leeds, Glasgow, Cardiff, Edinburgh and see where massive EU funded investment has created better Cities. I can visit Ireland and see where massive EU investment created a better road network.
And?
I can also visit many areas around the Parisian Peripherique and feel right at home amidst the devastation of boarded up businesses, closed down venues, disused houses, rubbish strewn alleys, gangs of feral youth, wrecked buildings, burned out cars and hoards of rough sleeping people, drunks and addicts.
Are the EU, or the French government to blame?
I look at my City as it was in the 70's and look at it now. From vibrance to wasteland, from hope to despair, from almost full employment to the synthetic drug Capital of Britain.
From my "Great City" to "Absolute Sh1thole" and that all happened on the EU's watch. The problem is Stoke on Trent is not alone.
Nothing to do with the EU. We always been an independent country, that used to be members of the EU.
When's that first flight to Rawanda, maybe I can go do missionary work.
You might be happier in Rwanda, as you dont seem at all happy in Stoke?
I give up its like talking thermodynamics to a chocolate bar.
Shelton Bar shut in the mid 70's so any of your figures post 2,000 are totally inapplicable, inappropriate and misleading
You seem oblivious to the fact that the EU broke it's own guidelines regarding Polish coal, that's not opinion it's fact. Imported Polish coal destroyed Britains Coal Industry.
Oh and I forgot about the lucrative erm, lets call them incentives to shift all manufacturing from Michelin in Stoke to France. Burnley got royally shafted as well. A town very similar to Stoke actually although much smaller but still a forgotten wasteland.
WTF do you think the inhabitants of the hotels are doing with all their spare time, I'll give you a clue. They are not sitting quietly waiting for their immigration status to be decided. Strange how the businesses, bars and shops within the vicinity of the hotels have closed. How bad does an area have to be that Wetherspoons and Chicago Rock decide it's just not worth it.
Your comment about Sunday lunch is so petty and I thought better of you than that. These hotels were a part of the community hosting weddings, anniversaries, birthdays and exhibitions. They had fitness facilities used by the public, hosted conferences and even visitors to the city, although why you'd visit Stoke is another question.
You can sit in your ivory tower and wax lyrical about the benefits of the EU and how they are the best thing for everybody. Great, I'm really happy that you feel your life has been enhanced by membership of the EU. and I imagine that's true for many of the places where EU investment has created an upturn, gentrification, and a better standard of living.
The EU is like VAR, good when you're benefitting from it and it works for you, although the entitled curse it when it doesn't.
However VAR is only for the very elite, the rest of us down in the lower leagues simply don't have it, don't want it and don't care about it because it does nothing for us.
I give up its like talking thermodynamics to a chocolate bar.
I will take your word for that.
Shelton Bar shut in the mid 70's so any of your figures post 2,000 are totally inapplicable, inappropriate and misleading
We didnt join the EEC until 1973.
You seem oblivious to the fact that the EU broke it's own guidelines regarding Polish coal, that's not opinion it's fact. Imported Polish coal destroyed Britains Coal Industry.
Maybe the writing was on the wall. Clement Attlee’s Labour government closed 101 pits between 1947 and 1951; Macmillan (Conservative) closed 246 pits between 1957 and 1963; Wilson (Labour) closed 253 in his two terms in office between 1964 and 1976; Heath (Conservative) closed 26 between 1970 and 1974;
Oh and I forgot about the lucrative erm, lets call them incentives to shift all manufacturing from Michelin in Stoke to France. Burnley got royally shafted as well. A town very similar to Stoke actually although much smaller but still a forgotten wasteland.
But remembered by our government?
WTF do you think the inhabitants of the hotels are doing with all their spare time, I'll give you a clue. They are not sitting quietly waiting for their immigration status to be decided. Strange how the businesses, bars and shops within the vicinity of the hotels have closed. How bad does an area have to be that Wetherspoons and Chicago Rock decide it's just not worth it.
As we have now left the EU for 3 years, presumably you are not blaming them. Our government doesnt allow them to work. Where would you like to put them?
Your comment about Sunday lunch is so petty and I thought better of you than that. These hotels were a part of the community hosting weddings, anniversaries, birthdays and exhibitions. They had fitness facilities used by the public, hosted conferences and even visitors to the city, although why you'd visit Stoke is another question.
I understand that, but how can you blame the EU? Your comment about your Sunday lunch was also petty. You seemed to imply that your occasional lunch was more important than the people fleeing persecution.
You can sit in your ivory tower and wax lyrical about the benefits of the EU and how they are the best thing for everybody. Great, I'm really happy that you feel your life has been enhanced by membership of the EU. and I imagine that's true for many of the places where EU investment has created an upturn, gentrification, and a better standard of living.
You have completely misunderstood what I am saying, and I am not sitting in an ivory tower. I dont believe that I saw great benefits from EU membership. I do think that our country benefits greatly. Many small companies have suffered since we left. Some have moved their offices to Europe, and relocated good jobs. Some industries have lost out. Bands touring Europe is now very difficult. Travelling to Europe is more difficult, as is getting treated in European hospitals. So anyone taking holidays in Europe is worse off. It was predicted that food prices would rise when we left. They have risen by around 20%, which affects everyone, although I couldnt be sure that the increase is completely down to leaving the EU. Retiring to Europe is no longer possible. Etc, etc, etc
The EU is like VAR, good when you're benefitting from it and it works for you, although the entitled curse it when it doesn't.
There you go again. I dont think it benefitted me. I am convinced that it certainly benefitted our country. It clearly benefitted our economy. You are the person cursing it, I am not.
However VAR is only for the very elite, the rest of us down in the lower leagues simply don't have it, don't want it and don't care about it because it does nothing for us.
You still havent come up with a single way in which the EU could have benefitted you and yours.
You still havent come up with a single way in which the EU could have benefitted you and yours.
No, I haven't because there isn't. If there had have been, they wouldn't. No benefit to them to do anything because there was no political, financial or economic gain by doing so.
We are never going to have an accord here so I think we just agree to disagree.
However, I would like your opinion on whether you think that EU has treated The U.K. with the same degree of fairness and measure as it did France, Germany, Belgium and The Netherlands.
You still havent come up with a single way in which the EU could have benefitted you and yours.
No, I haven't because there isn't. If there had have been, they wouldn't. No benefit to them to do anything because there was no political, financial or economic gain by doing so.
We are never going to have an accord here so I think we just agree to disagree.
However, I would like your opinion on whether you think that EU has treated The U.K. with the same degree of fairness and measure as it did France, Germany, Belgium and The Netherlands.
You havent mentioned straight bananas?
Britain and the EU: A long and rocky relationship
But why does Europe produce such a polarised reaction? Many Britons, on both sides of the debate, love visiting European countries and idolise elements of their culture - not least the food. Indeed, more than 1.5 million Britons have moved there to live.
But Europeans viewing British newspaper coverage, political debates or opinion polls would be forgiven for thinking we have little but contempt for our neighbours. It is, to say the least, a complex relationship.
But other members of the EU - Ireland, Malta, and Cyprus - are islands, and they do not object so much to handing powers to Brussels. Perhaps it is Britain's island mentality, combined with that imperial hangover, that is at play - Britain is used to giving orders, not taking them.
But as the European Coal and Steel Community was forged in 1951, Britain stood on the sidelines; and it declined an invitation to join the six founding nations of the European Economic Community in signing the Treaty of Rome in 1957.
One of the architects of the ECSC, Frenchman Jean Monnet, said: "I never understood why the British did not join. I came to the conclusion that it must have been because it was the price of victory - the illusion that you could maintain what you had, without change."
In 1984, Margaret Thatcher corrected what was seen as an injustice, negotiating a permanent rebate for Britain on its EC contributions
. Britain secured opt-outs from the single currency and the social chapter.
Comments
With large-scale, pro-EU protests set to hit London next month, UK citizens seem to have lost patience with Brexit.
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/brexit-opinion-poll-will-uk-rejoin-eu-when-is-march-to-rejoin-354483/
Britons who want to rejoin EU at highest levels since 2016, survey finds
Data showed 58% would vote to re-enter bloc, while respondents said they trusted the European Commission more than the UK government
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jun/23/britons-who-want-to-rejoin-eu-at-highest-since-2016-survey-finds
Economic problems driving support for reversing Brexit ‘mistake’
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-rejoin-poll-b2212730.html
But, it's how these numbers are arrived at and where they were reportedly collected that I am questioning.
Remember that 64% of statistics are made up the other 59% may have some validity.
I could canvas the opinion of every supporter at a Stoke game say between 16,000 - 20,000 fans and then say that 75% of Stoke fans agree with the decision to sack the manger, because 12,000 - 16,000 said yes.
But that's without considering the 70,000 + supporters who only attend occasionally.
Statistically I would be right but if you factor in the occasional fan the consensus is reduced to between 14 and 20%
It's not truly representative no matter what language you dress it up in.
Also I feel that how you phrase a question can have an impact on the response. Something again that surveys and study groups are very good at doing, then presenting the answer to a question that wasn't actually asked as an answer to the question you say it represents.
This was purely based on old fogey Brexiteers dying, and youngsters who were in favour of the EU, getting the vote.
Here we are 7 years after the referendum, and you can add to this, those that have realised that Brexit hasnt turned out as expected.
Hence the growing majority in favour of re-joining.
Where are all the trade deals?
How is controlling our borders going?
What about cheaper food prices?
Etc, etc,etc.
Polls now say we want to rejoin. Again, without any knowledge as to the price for so doing, or even knowing whether the EU would allow it. No knowledge as to whether would have to join the Single Army, the Euro, how many squillions we would have to pay.
To my mind, only shows one thing. That politics should be done by politicians. Not uninformed voters.
I think the EU would be happy to see us returning.
I have said a number of times that if the actual terms and conditions for re-joining were known, then the majority in favour may well be wiped out.
The referendum was a bad idea, that was poorly managed.
At the very least there should have been a requirement for a super-majority.
A return to the EEC. Primarily an Economic Community. Not a European superstate.
I believe a sizeable majority, both within the UK and Europe, want to retain National identity while wanting the economic benefits the EEC will bring. Aligning various economic principles, without sacrificing who we are.
We were members for the vast majority of my lifetime.
I never felt that being members impinged upon my National identity.
Nor do I feel that my National identity has been somehow enhanced, since we have left.
What I do know is that there appears to be a growing majority in favour of re-joining.
I dont think this will happen anytime soon.
So the best we can probably hope for is a closer relationship.
It makes me laugh when our politicians trot out the "stronger together" argument when it comes to the UK, but completely lose sight of the same argument when it comes to the EU.
If we could banish the Great British superiority complex, we would probably be far more realistic about our prospects, and shortcomings.
The youngsters of the future are likely to be more realistic.
That politics should be done by politicians that you can trust. Not uninformed voters.
Finding them could be the problem.
I despise the political views of the likes of Braverman and Corbyn. But they are genuinely trying to do what they believe is best for the Country. We increasingly live in a World where voters conflate "trust" with "do stuff they agree with".
There are plenty of people in the current Cabinet that I do not like. But that is not to say that they are not genuine. For example. Sunak and Gove.
However, 1 former Cabinet Minister shows how the current Conservative Party seek to promote people who are unfit to run a whelk stall. By which I mean Robert Jenrick.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Jenrick
He has been an MP for 9 years. Elected in 2014. By cheating on his Electoral expenses. As shown by the Fine levied by the Electoral Commission.
Tries to get everyone to forget he voted Remain.
Routinely attacks Solicitors. Forgets to mention he is a qualified Solicitor, or that his Wife is a Practising Solicitor.
While Housing Minister, forgot on several occasions that he had a conflict of interest while overruling Planning decisions to help out his friends. The worst of these was the £1Billion Westferry housing development, where he admitted in Court that his decision was "unlawful by reason of apparent bias"
Caught out on more than 1 occasion travelling to family in direct contravention of the Rules he propounded during Covid.
This is a man trying to become the next Leader of the Tory Party.
Can you be both British and European? On a personal level I feel that you cannot although I know that others on here will argue vehemently against that.
For all the supposed benefits of membership I firmly believe that the EU always was, still is and always will be Anti British.
Until somebody can show me how My life and the lives of my kids and grandkids will be any better off under the EU then I will always hold that view. I struggle to see where membership created anything relevant to me that I didn't either have or couldn't have expected without membership..
I'm not talking about business, I'm not talking about finance, what has the EU ever done for ME.
We all have our own dividing lines. Purely personally, I am happy to trust the EU on stuff like economic policies, and certain limited rules to integrate within our own Laws. Whereas I do not trust a European superstate, or a common Army.
What has the EU ever done for you? Let's take Stoke as an example (just in the 3 years before we left the EU):-
-£2.2 million to Stoke Council to help Stoke/Staffs SMEs
-£420k to Stoke Council for the ESF programme
-£373k to Stoke Council for the ERDF programme
-A roughly 10% share in the £1.6 million Ceramics project, to support EU ceramics heritage
In a broader context-
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-what-has-european-union-done-for-us-david-cameron-brexit-a6850626.html
It protected EU businesses from competition. It provided considerable economic benefits to each and every one of us. It provided freedom of movement for British people to retire to warmer countries. It provided a framework for dealing with refugees. It gave us rules that we have been unable to match to date.
Remind me. If you are just talking about you and your family, what has this Government ever done for you?
Have taxes gone down? No. Have our borders looked more secure? No. Has our Govt replaced the various EU Grants? No. Have all the "savings" on that side of that bus gone to the NHS or indeed anywhere we can see? No. Are we in a deeper recession with lower growth than all our direct EU rivals, such as Germany/France? Yes.
Once the Bar closed the mines were sure to suffer as the demand for coal and coke which fired the processes was diminished, with the death knell being the EU betrayal of Britain's Coal Industry to subsidised Polish coal, and the Mines of the Schalke region of Germany.
People moving to warmer climates is all well and good but 2 things to say here. Move, but don't have your cake and eat it. You want to go live in Spain fine but apply to be a Spanish citizen or wherever you go. Secondly don't fly back for urgent NHS treatment, don't have a say in how this country is run and don't moan about whether your new country likes you. Warm climates have Nationalists too.
Your figures if correct show what, a supposed£3m investment over 3 years. Wow that really impacted ME and MINE in a positive way. £300m may have helped somewhat.
As for Ceramics, well that's about the only industry that we fkd up without the help of the EU. Spode, Doulton, Minton, Wedgewood, Moorcroft, Biltons, Woods, Twyffords, Wades, Byatts etc.
What's left, Steelite, Emma Bridgewater and Portmerion
As for refugees, well 3 of the 4 local hotels where as a family we would go for Sunday lunch or a celebration meal are no longer available as they are housing immigrants currently, and the 4th closed over Covid and is being bulldozed for houses for people who work in Manchester and Birmingham and want to commute.
No the Government has not made any difference either, hence my statement that the EU gave me nothing that I didn't already have or could get.
I can visit Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool, London, Leeds, Glasgow, Cardiff, Edinburgh and see where massive EU funded investment has created better Cities. I can visit Ireland and see where massive EU investment created a better road network.
I can also visit many areas around the Parisian Peripherique and feel right at home amidst the devastation of boarded up businesses, closed down venues, disused houses, rubbish strewn alleys, gangs of feral youth, wrecked buildings, burned out cars and hoards of rough sleeping people, drunks and addicts.
I look at my City as it was in the 70's and look at it now. From vibrance to wasteland, from hope to despair, from almost full employment to the synthetic drug Capital of Britain.
From my "Great City" to "Absolute Sh1thole" and that all happened on the EU's watch. The problem is Stoke on Trent is not alone.
When's that first flight to Rawanda, maybe I can go do missionary work.
Shelton Bar shut in the mid 70's so any of your figures post 2,000 are totally inapplicable, inappropriate and misleading
You seem oblivious to the fact that the EU broke it's own guidelines regarding Polish coal, that's not opinion it's fact. Imported Polish coal destroyed Britains Coal Industry.
Oh and I forgot about the lucrative erm, lets call them incentives to shift all manufacturing from Michelin in Stoke to France. Burnley got royally shafted as well. A town very similar to Stoke actually although much smaller but still a forgotten wasteland.
WTF do you think the inhabitants of the hotels are doing with all their spare time, I'll give you a clue. They are not sitting quietly waiting for their immigration status to be decided. Strange how the businesses, bars and shops within the vicinity of the hotels have closed. How bad does an area have to be that Wetherspoons and Chicago Rock decide it's just not worth it.
Your comment about Sunday lunch is so petty and I thought better of you than that. These hotels were a part of the community hosting weddings, anniversaries, birthdays and exhibitions. They had fitness facilities used by the public, hosted conferences and even visitors to the city, although why you'd visit Stoke is another question.
You can sit in your ivory tower and wax lyrical about the benefits of the EU and how they are the best thing for everybody. Great, I'm really happy that you feel your life has been enhanced by membership of the EU. and I imagine that's true for many of the places where EU investment has created an upturn, gentrification, and a better standard of living.
The EU is like VAR, good when you're benefitting from it and it works for you, although the entitled curse it when it doesn't.
However VAR is only for the very elite, the rest of us down in the lower leagues simply don't have it, don't want it and don't care about it because it does nothing for us.
No, I haven't because there isn't. If there had have been, they wouldn't. No benefit to them to do anything because there was no political, financial or economic gain by doing so.
We are never going to have an accord here so I think we just agree to disagree.
However, I would like your opinion on whether you think that EU has treated The U.K. with the same degree of fairness and measure as it did France, Germany, Belgium and The Netherlands.
Britain and the EU: A long and rocky relationship
But why does Europe produce such a polarised reaction? Many Britons, on both sides of the debate, love visiting European countries and idolise elements of their culture - not least the food. Indeed, more than 1.5 million Britons have moved there to live.
But Europeans viewing British newspaper coverage, political debates or opinion polls would be forgiven for thinking we have little but contempt for our neighbours. It is, to say the least, a complex relationship.
But other members of the EU - Ireland, Malta, and Cyprus - are islands, and they do not object so much to handing powers to Brussels. Perhaps it is Britain's island mentality, combined with that imperial hangover, that is at play - Britain is used to giving orders, not taking them.
But as the European Coal and Steel Community was forged in 1951, Britain stood on the sidelines; and it declined an invitation to join the six founding nations of the European Economic Community in signing the Treaty of Rome in 1957.
One of the architects of the ECSC, Frenchman Jean Monnet, said: "I never understood why the British did not join. I came to the conclusion that it must have been because it was the price of victory - the illusion that you could maintain what you had, without change."
In 1984, Margaret Thatcher corrected what was seen as an injustice, negotiating a permanent rebate for Britain on its EC contributions
. Britain secured opt-outs from the single currency and the social chapter.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26515129