You need to be logged in to your Sky Poker account above to post discussions and comments.
You might need to refresh your page afterwards.
Is this a ripoff in live poker or is it reasonable?
penguin7
Member Posts: 1,095
Tonight I played a live tournament in Torquay. It was advertised as a £25 freezeout plus a £3 registration fee with 5000 chips. When I registered I was offered an extra 2500 chips for £5, which I paid, assuming it would boost the prize pool.
I had quite a conversation with the guy on the desk and actually commented that I wished casinos would just make it a £30 freezeout. He did not make any indication that the extra cash would not be added to the prize pool.
During level 2 the guy came and stood behind me as I played, and I asked him why the extra chip purchases were not shown on the screens as chips in play, average stacks, or in the prize pool. He replied that he doesnt enter them until the first break at the end of level 3.
There were 30 players in the tournament and they all had paid the extra £5. After the break the screen still did not reflect the extra chips in play or the extra cash collected. So when the same member of staff came to the table during level 5, I asked him again. He then told me that the extra money is used to give the winner a free seat into their monthly £100 freezeout.
I asked why this was not explained to me when I paid the £5 or why it was not made clear on their tournament schedule leaflets, and he said it was in the rules somewhere. I then suggested that his earlier comment about entering them on the screens was perhaps misleading, and he dashed off to change it so it showed the chips, but didnt change the prizepool. After 20 mins searching, he showed me a sentence at the bottom of a poster saying that the cash for the bonus chips would be retained by the house, and about the winner being entered into the monthly tourny.
A conversation started at the table about it, all the players were regulars and all knew each other. It seemed that the management had explained it to them that they needed to do it to keep the poker room alive. They all complained about it and initially refused to pay the extra, but inevitably some broke ranks to get an edge, and they were now all reluctantly paying it. They are unable to take their business elsewhere as the nearest competition is in Plymouth.
I was quite angry about this and asked to speak to the manager at the next break or when I was knocked out. Which happened quite soon, as I lost a big pot against a `shortstack and then shoved all in blind next hand, only for my hand to be declared dead as the dealer had mucked other hands on it ! Quite correct ruling as I had failed to pull my cards in towards me, but the fact that it was selfdealt, even with only 12 players left, was a factor. A proper dealer would have known what was going on. I was not really concentrating by then anyway
So I eventually spoke to the most senior person there, a casino floor manager. My main argument was that their lack of transparency was bad for the image of poker. Out of the extra money taken some was used for a tournament seat against the wishes of the players, but the remainder of the cash just disappeared.
He confirmed that the same thing now happened at all of their tournaments. He denied that I had been misled, but said that the staff member would be reprimanded for not recognising me as a new player and explaining it to me.
He did offer me a fiver back , which I declined. My concern is that they are treating all of their players poorly, and not being totally transparent and honest.
Thoughts?
I had quite a conversation with the guy on the desk and actually commented that I wished casinos would just make it a £30 freezeout. He did not make any indication that the extra cash would not be added to the prize pool.
During level 2 the guy came and stood behind me as I played, and I asked him why the extra chip purchases were not shown on the screens as chips in play, average stacks, or in the prize pool. He replied that he doesnt enter them until the first break at the end of level 3.
There were 30 players in the tournament and they all had paid the extra £5. After the break the screen still did not reflect the extra chips in play or the extra cash collected. So when the same member of staff came to the table during level 5, I asked him again. He then told me that the extra money is used to give the winner a free seat into their monthly £100 freezeout.
I asked why this was not explained to me when I paid the £5 or why it was not made clear on their tournament schedule leaflets, and he said it was in the rules somewhere. I then suggested that his earlier comment about entering them on the screens was perhaps misleading, and he dashed off to change it so it showed the chips, but didnt change the prizepool. After 20 mins searching, he showed me a sentence at the bottom of a poster saying that the cash for the bonus chips would be retained by the house, and about the winner being entered into the monthly tourny.
A conversation started at the table about it, all the players were regulars and all knew each other. It seemed that the management had explained it to them that they needed to do it to keep the poker room alive. They all complained about it and initially refused to pay the extra, but inevitably some broke ranks to get an edge, and they were now all reluctantly paying it. They are unable to take their business elsewhere as the nearest competition is in Plymouth.
I was quite angry about this and asked to speak to the manager at the next break or when I was knocked out. Which happened quite soon, as I lost a big pot against a `shortstack and then shoved all in blind next hand, only for my hand to be declared dead as the dealer had mucked other hands on it ! Quite correct ruling as I had failed to pull my cards in towards me, but the fact that it was selfdealt, even with only 12 players left, was a factor. A proper dealer would have known what was going on. I was not really concentrating by then anyway
So I eventually spoke to the most senior person there, a casino floor manager. My main argument was that their lack of transparency was bad for the image of poker. Out of the extra money taken some was used for a tournament seat against the wishes of the players, but the remainder of the cash just disappeared.
He confirmed that the same thing now happened at all of their tournaments. He denied that I had been misled, but said that the staff member would be reprimanded for not recognising me as a new player and explaining it to me.
He did offer me a fiver back , which I declined. My concern is that they are treating all of their players poorly, and not being totally transparent and honest.
Thoughts?
Comments
n Response to Is this a ripoff in live poker or is it reasonable?:
In vegas this is common practice, but the money is retained to give to the dealers I think.
In the UK I have only paid for bonus chips in small poker clubs and the money usually goes to the dealers/towards freerolls. They are always dealer dealt tournies tho and they are well run places so have never minded.
I would be very annoyed to be playing for bonus chips in a non dealer dealt game tho.
Weird situation Tony not sure what to suggest.
I used to be a regular at Torquay casino and they have been doing this for quite a while now.
I did not mind paying the extra £5 in the £20 rebuy where you start with 2000 chips (so £5 for 1000 more made sense) but the tuesday £25 freezeout is a new tourney for them and the extra 1000 doesnt offer value on the 7500 chips already given .
I was never told that this money went towards entry to the £100 tourney because before they started doing this the casino would add £50 and £50 would come out of prize pool to pay for entry.
At the time we all cosidered it as just a way of the casino taking in more money because numbers have gone down a lot these last few years and were willing to pay to keep the live poker scene going in our area.
I think you are right that when you register you should be told exactly where the money goes and then it is your decision to make.
I hope this hasnt put you off going in the future because we need more players there and the first sunday of the month £100 1 rebuy or addon is a pretty good tourney.
The fact that this member of staff acted so shadely (misinformation and correcting factors after the fact) makes me suspect that this free £100 is a phantom.
That would be the first thing I would check.
In principle I like the idea. But it needs to be transparent.
so just last night there were 30 runners each playing 5 quid extra.
thats 150 pounds.
so where does the extra 50 go?
you say they need to do it to keep the poker room alive...
then you say there is no competition because its the only casino in devon.
if it cant run a successful card room with such a big catchment area then it is not being run properly
I did not accept their offer of the £5 back, money was not a factor in my annoyance.
I just dislike any so called reputable company doing anything that denigrates the image of the game.
In retrospect I should have accepted it then gone back in and suggested that the other players ask for theirs back too !
The solution for me is simple.... I just will not play there again.
But I feel they should not be treating their regulars so badly.
The other players also told me that this tournament often attracts 40 players, so after paying the £100 prize for the Sunday tournament entry ,there is sometimes £100 which is totally unaccounted for, simply going to "the house".
The floor manager asked me if I would have paid for the extra chips when I registered, if I had been properly informed as to where the money was going. I think my honest answer surprised him...... I would not have registered at all and taken a taxi back to my hotel. I only want to play in places where everything is properly transparent and above board.
I would suggest that you forward the link to this thread to the head office of the casino chain! They wont like the bad publicity and they are bound to respond to you properly, unlike the casino floor manager.
fwiw i think you hae perfect grounds for a compaint here. They should tell u exactly where the £5 goes when you agree to pay it for extra chips!
Good Luck
Greg
doesnt make it right but the fact regulars (not you tony) are stupid/silly/desperate enough to put up with it is why they get away with it
I can see how it would be really annoying though as it sounds like it's pretty much the only card room in your local area. I can't believe there aren't many more poker rooms starting up with the level of interest there is.
I've often wondered how you'd go about setting one up. A friend of mine's father-in-law owns/runs a very small little known poker/bingo/slots website and I'm sure he said something about you can't officially get a licence for just a poker room.... like it has to be a gaming licence and there have to be other games played on site such as darts/chess whatever and then the poker is supposedly kinda ad-hoc (I think it's just red tape and loopholes)
Usually I enjoy a nice tournament in a new environment, and often get an idea of how some casinos make it work while others struggle. Although I certainly dont claim to be an expert on the subject.
As somebody posted above this place has a monopoly in the region with a huge catchment area. It is owned by a well known company (Google is your friend !) The building is beautiful in a tucked away but central location. The poker room is not huge ,but is big enough.
The obvious drawback is that the casinos gaming tables and slots dont seem to be busy either, so they are limited in their options for subsidising the poker operation from other income for a period of time to build their customer base.
But surely there must be a better policy than this £5 bonus chip fee ? The lack of transparency is unacceptable. Speaking to many of the regulars they are sympathetic to the difficulties the place faces, and are probably quite willing to pay a little extra to keep live poker going in Torquay.
So why not be upfront about it ? If they make this tournament a straightforward £25 freezeout with 7500 chips and charge a higher registration fee there would be no grey areas, no questions of where is this money going etc. If it was £25 + £5, it would be 3 quid cheaper than at present (25+3+5), and would actually give them more profit than it does now if they stopped giving the free seat to the winner (which I am sure the regulars would accept).
This may sound a high fee at a fiver , but people will pay a little more for a well run tourny. The registration fees at DTD are at this level or even higher (and have to be as they dont have the income from roulette tables etc). But players pay them there.
If I had walked in last night and been told it was a straightforward 25+5 , I may have commented on it but would have happily played.
The other question is the lack of dealers. I hate selfdealt tournaments and have walked out of a few casinos because of it. And I can name quite a few poker rooms around the country which will never grow their poker business because of their failure to get to grips with it.
But maybe in this case it will have to be accepted for a while, the priority must surely be to stop alienating their customers first.