In Response to Re: Join James & Rich on...THE CASH CRUSADE! : Good advice, Tommy and thanks for your well-wishing too. Let me throw this into the mix- is there any value in opening up say, 6 tables- shortstacked at each and every one, and then fold away on each table until you hit a hand pre-fop and then just shove the lot? So most the time, everyone else will fold, but occasionally you'll get that cal and if your hand hold up, you get the double up and you leave the table and start aghain on a new table shorttsacked? It's not pretty poker, but over the course of a couple of hours will I make more money this way? Or will I be throwing away opprotuniteis by piling all my money in pre-flop with KK and getting no callers- or worse, gettiing called and getting beat thereby losing my entire stack. Or woul losing my stack on two tables be more than offset by doubling up on 3 or 4 others? And would this be the ratio? Thoughts please anyone? Posted by RICHORFORD
As far as multi tabling goes, if you are short stacking I think you have to open as many as you are comfortable with.
As far as waiting for hands go, this can work at full ring tables but not at 6Max IMO, you're just in the blinds too much. My perception of shortstacking is when you put it in, you want a call. You either want one player to call off with a more unprofitable range than they should due to your stack (it's only £X, let's gamble etc) or to get it all in multi way with a multi way hand and the odds.
One little note, I think your BRM should be as if your are playing full buyins even though you are short stacking. You'll be getting in so many spots where you have the odds but are not the favourite that swings will happen.
One major factor in this will be that everyone knows you. This will cause1 or a mixture of these 3 things. 1. Everyone knows what your doing and will just avoid playing you except very strong hands as they know your likely to shove it in on any flop. 2. Because of who you are you will get called light (opposite to 1.) You won't be able to make any steals and will find yourselves waiting for premiums and getting 7 callers on a 6 handed table. 3. Higher staked players will follow you where ever you go and try and "do you" therefore you will not really be playing 10nl as such, more like 50 / 100nl but just at 10nl stakes. IMO the only way you could get this to work properly is to do it on an unknown account. Goodluck with it though, and like others have said, I hope you both crush it! Posted by FlashFlush
Interesting thoughts, Charles.
If 100nl players choose to play down in a bid to "do me," good luck to 'em. I hope the £12 is worth their time ;-)
As previously mentioned, things started well at Barnstable (ten-handed 15p/30p NLHE). First hand: I called a raise with AQ, flopped the nuts (KJT), got action from KJ, more than doubled up. A few hands later, I got it in pre-flop with AK against AQ and won another decent pot. I left the table with a profit.
+£24.23
At Sandmoor (six-max, 15p/30p NLHE), I won a few small pots before a big coup: AK>QQ (aipf). Once again, I left the table with a profit.
+£18.00
At Bramley (six-max, 15p/30p NLHE), I won a big flip (99>AK) and then picked up a few decent pots, ensuring I left this table with a decent profit.
+£11.17
Koszalin (six-max, 15p/30p NLHE) was the thorn in my side. I got stacked (for my £12 buy-in) three times: AK<QQ (aipf); K9<QT (on a flop of QJ9); KK<AK (aipf). I won a bit back during my final hour at the table, but, suffice to say, took a hit here.
-£31.31
So, my short-stacking experiment resulted in a net PROFIT of £22.39.
But did I enjoy the experience?
In a word, no!
First of all, it's boring. Not only do you have to wait for the right hands, you also have to wait for the right spots. You're then almost completely reliant on variance.
It's like playing a below average stack in a MTT. Your decision-making is confined to two betting streets: pre-flop and on the flop. It's pretty basic.
That said, I think short-stacking requires two key skills: patience and the ability to assess +EV shoving spots.
I'm not sure I possess these skills! I made the mistake of playing too many hands, and frequently went set-mining without the correct implied odds.
Towards the end, I followed TommyD's advice and made some "classic" short-stacking moves (shoving 35bbs with 76s over the top of a 4x open and two calls).
However, I much prefer playing intricate, multi-street poker. So, with that in mind, it's time to explore the opposite end of the spectrum: deep stack (200bb) No Limit Hold'em!
OK, I played two Master Cash tables, with full (200bb) stacks...
At Master Cash 3 (10p/20p), I managed to recover from an initial downswing and make a profit.
+£15
At Master Cash 6 (15p/30p), I had a terrible session, but learned four valuable lessons:
1) Stick to 10p/20p.
2) Don't bluff SoLack.
3) Don't make hero calls against SoLack.
4) Basically, don't get involved in pots with SoLack.
Suffice to say, I made a huge loss.
-£49.62
Playing deep is much more fun. You can afford to set-mine and make speculative calls with suited one-gappers. You can even afford to call three-bets (in position, obv) and see flops.
Plus, you don't have to play hands like 88/99/TT as if they're aces. In fact, at MC 6, I actually flatted a four-bet pre with QQ and folded (to a c-bet from my TAG opponent) on an AKx flop. I would NOT have been able to get away from that hand playing <40bbs.
It requires more skill to play deepstack cash poker (which is probably why I lost money this evening - lol), but it's a much more satisfying experience.
As my crusade continues, I will always be playing 100-200bbs.
So, after Week 1, I've accrued a LOSS of £12.23. To be fair that ain't bad for a night's entertainment, or, in my case, a few hours of invaluable scientific research.
OK, here's my half-time report... As previously mentioned, things started well at Barnstable (ten-handed 15p/30p NLHE). First hand: I called a raise with AQ, flopped the nuts (KJT), got action from KJ, more than doubled up. A few hands later, I got it in pre-flop with AK against AQ and won another decent pot. I left the table with a profit. +£24.23 At Sandmoor (six-max, 15p/30p NLHE), I won a few small pots before a big coup: AK />QQ (aipf). Once again, I left the table with a profit. +£18.00 At Bramley (six-max, 15p/30p NLHE), I won a big flip (99 />AK) and then picked up a few decent pots, ensuring I left this table with a decent profit. +£11.17 Koszalin (six-max, 15p/30p NLHE) was the thorn in my side. I got stacked (for my £12 buy-in) three times: AK<QQ (aipf); K9<QT (on a flop of QJ9); KK<AK (aipf). I won a bit back during my final hour at the table, but, suffice to say, took a hit here. -£31.31 So, my short-stacking experiment resulted in a net PROFIT of £22.39 . But did I enjoy the experience? In a word, no! First of all, it's boring. Not only do you have to wait for the right hands, you also have to wait for the right spots. You 're then almost completely reliant on variance. It's like playing a below average stack in a MTT. Your decision-making is confined to two betting streets: pre-flop and on the flop. It's pretty basic. That said, I think short-stacking requires two key skills: patience and the ability to assess +EV shoving spots. I'm not sure I possess these skills! I made the mistake of playing too many hands, and frequently went set-mining without the correct implied odds. Towards the end, I followed TommyD's advice and made some "classic" short-stacking moves (shoving 35bbs with 76s over the top of a 4x open and two calls). However, I much prefer playing intricate, multi-street poker. So, with that in mind, it's time to explore the opposite end of the spectrum: deep stack (200bb) No Limit Hold'em! Posted by J-Hartigan
Look at the way Orford's come on since listening to Tikay and Frazer! Selection and Staking improvements have led to multiple (well at least three) final tables. If it's patience you need to improve I dare you to multi table up to 4 low level mtt's deciding in advance ten hands you'll play and only play those hands until you're in the money or have less than ten big blinds. I'd wager you couldn't do it without succumbing to temptation! but if you could I think you might learn a valuable lesson! Myself I lose interest too easily but i'd love to see the effect the discipline would have! Good Luck on the tables!
If you wanna learn patience James, get to the 4NL tables. It would be a real shame if these do not get included in your journey, or at least 8NL/10NL because it's basically the same bad play but less of it.
But that'll teach you patience cos you'll get crucified if you keep playing marginal hands and getting outdrawn by people who called your preflop raise with 102 off
If you wanna learn patience James, get to the 4NL tables. It would be a real shame if these do not get included in your journey, or at least 8NL/10NL because it's basically the same bad play but less of it. But that'll teach you patience cos you'll get crucified if you keep playing marginal hands and getting outdrawn by people who called your preflop raise with 102 off Posted by Lambert180
Even if he moves down to these levels the reg's will just follow him so playing same players smaller stakes.I remember trying to beat Santa on an 4p/8p table to get into a freeroll had gliterbabe to my left and alot more reg's on the table and that was the only chance i had in my brm.Gave up trying to play the presenter years ago even if they open multiple tables at low stakes the same higher level player dive in on all of them and stay there till the end.
Got the double-up I needed by putting in a decent-sized pot-committing raise pre-flop faced with multi-action and then didn't lay it down for the remaining £14. i.e. looked for a spot where I could get the lot in pre-fop with a premium hand which then held up...
Are you going to make some moves? Solid play so far but your profit is a one hand wonder! Could the difference between solid and awesome be you give credit to players where credit isn't due! Lets see some button experiments! With outrageous hands after all Tikay always says positon is 9/10ths of keeping a healthy bankroll
Well, lost that £20 on the big table with an AK v QQ coup pre-flop.
Gotta say it, it's not poker this shortstacking, it's hit and hope. That said, there is an art to it, you have to pick the right spot to get your opponent to call you and for it to be just one opponent, to improve your chances of your hand holding up. The major problem with sitting with stacks of £200 with just £10 is that everyone can call with careless abandon!
I think on reflection losing my third all-in was a mistake on my part. I didn't push with the AK, I called. Thereby guaranteeing at best a race, at worst to be dominated, and the slimmest of slim chances of being up against AQ, AJ.
All told so far then, sitting on the 10p/20p table with the max amount and playing ABC poker mostly has resulted in a treble-up and then some. £20 into £70+
Sitting on the shortstack table got me a double up from my £25 to £41 and then losing £20 again by going up a few levels.
Are you going to make some moves? Solid play so far but your profit is a one hand wonder! Could the difference between solid and awesome be you give credit to players where credit isn't due! Lets see some button experiments! With outrageous hands after all Tikay always says positon is 9/10ths of keeping a healthy bankroll Posted by DUNMIDOSH
I have been making some moves!
I just don't show the bluff!
For the most part though, I've been playing ABC poker with 100BBs to see if a boring steady approach is ultimately more profitable in the long run than a more exciting loose and creative approach as a shortstack at much higher levels.
Comments
As far as waiting for hands go, this can work at full ring tables but not at 6Max IMO, you're just in the blinds too much. My perception of shortstacking is when you put it in, you want a call. You either want one player to call off with a more unprofitable range than they should due to your stack (it's only £X, let's gamble etc) or to get it all in multi way with a multi way hand and the odds.
One little note, I think your BRM should be as if your are playing full buyins even though you are short stacking. You'll be getting in so many spots where you have the odds but are not the favourite that swings will happen.
Selection and Staking improvements have led to multiple (well at least three) final tables.
If it's patience you need to improve I dare you to multi table up to 4 low level mtt's deciding in advance ten hands you'll play and only play those hands until you're in the money or have less than ten big blinds.
I'd wager you couldn't do it without succumbing to temptation! but if you could I think you might learn a valuable lesson!
Myself I lose interest too easily but i'd love to see the effect the discipline would have!
Good Luck on the tables!
But that'll teach you patience cos you'll get crucified if you keep playing marginal hands and getting outdrawn by people who called your preflop raise with 102 off
Got the double-up I needed by putting in a decent-sized pot-committing raise pre-flop faced with multi-action and then didn't lay it down for the remaining £14. i.e. looked for a spot where I could get the lot in pre-fop with a premium hand which then held up...
I'm now going to take that amount and shorty it on a higher level table
Solid play so far but your profit is a one hand wonder!
Could the difference between solid and awesome be you give credit to players where credit isn't due!
Lets see some button experiments! With outrageous hands after all Tikay always says positon is 9/10ths of keeping a healthy bankroll
On my 10p/20p table I've trbeled up but now I'm doing some serious shortstacking.
I'm on Red Sea where the blinds are 50p/£1
and I've posted £10! The absolute bare minimum- 10BBs. The max is £100.
First hand...
So, lost the £10- immediately topped back up with another tenner and then this happened...
Gotta say it, it's not poker this shortstacking, it's hit and hope. That said, there is an art to it, you have to pick the right spot to get your opponent to call you and for it to be just one opponent, to improve your chances of your hand holding up. The major problem with sitting with stacks of £200 with just £10 is that everyone can call with careless abandon!
I think on reflection losing my third all-in was a mistake on my part. I didn't push with the AK, I called. Thereby guaranteeing at best a race, at worst to be dominated, and the slimmest of slim chances of being up against AQ, AJ.
All told so far then, sitting on the 10p/20p table with the max amount and playing ABC poker mostly has resulted in a treble-up and then some. £20 into £70+
Sitting on the shortstack table got me a double up from my £25 to £41 and then losing £20 again by going up a few levels.
So- total profit so far £57
Back in a bit!
I just don't show the bluff!
For the most part though, I've been playing ABC poker with 100BBs to see if a boring steady approach is ultimately more profitable in the long run than a more exciting loose and creative approach as a shortstack at much higher levels.