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DYM bubble
dragon1964
Member Posts: 3,054
in Poker Chat
| Player | Action | Cards | Amount | Pot | Balance |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Y | Small blind | 100.00 | 100.00 | 1817.50 | |
| dragon1964 | Big blind | 200.00 | 300.00 | 4112.50 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| X | Raise | 400.00 | 700.00 | 3470.00 | |
| Z | Fold | ||||
| Y | Fold | ||||
| dragon1964 | Raise | 800.00 | 1500.00 | 3312.50 | |
| X | All-in | 3470.00 | 4970.00 | 0.00 | |
| dragon1964 | Call | 2870.00 | 7840.00 | 442.50 | |
| dragon1964 | Show |
| |||
| X | Show |
| |||
| Flop | |||||
| |||||
| Turn | |||||
| |||||
| River | |||||
| |||||
| X | Win | Full House, Aces and Queens | 7840.00 | 7840.00 | |
I probably wouldn't have given it another thought had it not been AA.
We are both the big stacks.
But with the other two stacks being around 2K and villain knows he is putting it all on the line 4 bet shoving, should I have folded and preserved my stack?
Or am I over thinking it?
How often is it not AA?
My notes on villain are 5 years old (big losing DYM player at the time) but hadn't done anything out of line this game, I can remember.
Thoughts please.
Comments
Fold: No. Maybe if stacks were more extreme, but while short stacks have >1k this option isn't even entering my brain.
3b/f: If we 3bet to 800-1k total, then fold to a shove, we're still going to cash around 80% of the time. The alternative would be 3b/c.
3b/f and having our ~80% equity is clearly preferable to 3b/c where we're taking a 70/30 at best even vs an overly loose 4b jam range for stacks in a situation where we'd have >70% chance of cashing even after 3b/f.
Therefore, if we 3b KK here vs this player, 3b/f is the line, purely for ICM reasons. If we're getting 4b with any real frequency, we should either flat or 3b shove instead, but I've covered this more in the "3b jam" section where it's more applicable.
Coming back to 3b/f though - Folds are great for us. We win 700 chips without showdown. Calls are ok too, we can cbet fairly small on appropriate boards, win it most of the time. Also we can leverage a turn jam. We'll get tons of folds.
If called on the flop, we can reassess turn and villain's range - we're probably going to jam a decent amount of turns for value and protection vs the right player types. Even on boards or vs players where we can't jam turn, it'll get checked down a lot.
The ICM with the stacks as they are means we don't want to end up in a big pot really. So it's important to be doing this vs the right types of players. Doing this vs a bad LAG is just going to end up with you folding the best hand (correctly, ICM) and giving away loads of chips a ton of the time.
Getting a fold and having a reasonable chip lead with the villain also losing a few hundred chips may also open up the possibility of them becoming more cautious against us the rest of the game, since we are able to KO them, so we'll be able to exploit them by minraising and getting a ton of folds from the SB and button potentially.
Overall, 3b/f pre is certainly a viable option, and it helps if you're good at postflop.
3b/c: Ruled out for ICM reasons (see 3b/f).
3b jam: If you think you're getting a 4b resteal that would force you into an ICM fold, then 3b jam is how to prevent that. But that's incredibly unlikely. Reasons for that are beyond the scope of this post (translation: "It's gone 4am and I need to go to bed soon"), but people just aren't 4b restealing much at all.
Far more likely is that you get a 4b 'resteal' that is actually just a bad LAG thinking they're doing it for value with a suited ace or pocket 9s or something. I guess these players would be a 3b jam as well sometimes if they fold enough of their opens (maybe even including some stuff they 4b jam) but they can also just be a call pre and let them self implode.
Call: I like this for a couple of reasons.
1) Chances are, the other big stack isn't really wanting to get into a pot with you either, so you'll probably get to a fairly cheap showdown with the villain opting to pot control in position.
2) You disguise the strength of your hand by flatting here (certainly vs some less experienced players)
I could go into this a lot more but I'll be here forever. But calling is also very viable.
I use all three of the 3b/f, call and 3b jam options in similar spots with similar stacks to this, probably in that order of most to least frequent, but it's almost entirely player-dependent which one I would choose.
Especially @EvilPingu for such detail at ridiculous o'clock.
As we all know, the real answer is to fold KK pre (copyright devonfish)
The good news is I managed to claw my way back and cash 😁😁
But from experience it's actually okay exploitatively on here to 3b KK in this kind of spot vs a surprisingly large amount of players who respond to a 3b in this situation by being tight and incredibly passive.
It's certainly not my default though. I'd probs call as a default.
In game I jam this to defy villain equity and would love a fold from villain.
I agree calling is good if we understand we want to play a passive small pot on a lot of boards.
Our full strategy is dictated by the huge amount of equity we have with our 4k stack and our wish to protect it.
Jamming is definitely fine for the reason you state, but there's villains who respond near identically to a small 3b too (i.e. they jam the stuff they're willing to stack off with vs you and fold everything else, with the occasional peel and fold flop to a tiny cbet when they miss). Those are the kinds of people I would exploit in this way, and if/when they adjust you just revert to either calling or 3b shoving.
I think as played it’s fine to stack off.
I would be 3betting smaller and again I’d probably have to call it off.
I 3bet a large % of sb opens and I’m extremely easy to play against if I’m essentially folding my entire range to the shove
If people are going to start 3bet/folding KK v me then I’m going to put more volume in 😉
As always with Dyms it’s player dependant
If there was a stack that was very short then flatting is optimal and keeping the pot small
The other point to make is the small player pools. If always fold, will get bet into like this 20 times a day...