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Should This Have Been a Fold?

Asho28Asho28 Member Posts: 763
edited July 2020 in Poker Chat
Evening,

Hand from the 15k main that I was fortunate enough to win a seat for in the weekday freeroll. I don't like how I played it throughout in all honesty but would be grateful for opinions and advice on whether I should've folded this on the river.
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
starfoxSmall blind50.0050.0013029.50
Rocket919Big blind100.00150.008725.50
Your hole cards
  • Q
  • K
chicknMeltFold
Asho28Raise300.00450.0011330.00
L1NZY16Fold
boggoCall300.00750.009450.00
starfoxFold
Rocket919Fold
Flop
  • 7
  • 3
  • 7
Asho28Bet400.001150.0010930.00
boggoCall400.001550.009050.00
Turn
  • J
Asho28Bet1000.002550.009930.00
boggoCall1000.003550.008050.00
River
  • K
Asho28Check
boggoAll-in8050.0011600.000.00
Asho28Call8050.0019650.001880.00
Asho28Show
  • Q
  • K
boggoShow
  • J
  • J
boggoWinFull House, Jacks and 7s19650.0019650.00
Don't ask me why I checked the river, not that it made much difference in this particular hand. I was expecting a decent sized bet on the river but their all in completely took me by surprise. I was trying to work out what he could have but literally froze. In the end, I reluctantly called on the basis that he could've had a weaker flush draw. No particular reads on my opponent prior to this hand. In hindsight, I'm not sure what I was beating with a bet of that size and should've abandoned the hand - probably my inexperience in a high-stakes tourney like this that made me call.

This hand kicked off chain of unfortunate events: I then lost an all in with QQ & 77 for the remainder of my chips where they hit a runner runner flush to knock me out, and then when trying to wish "good luck" to my opponents, I accidentally hit return and rebought back in to the tournament*. That didn't turn out to be a happy accident as I was busted just after the rebuy period had lapsed. Qs into Ks and 10s into Aces in the mini meant a very bad evening on the baize for me, but onwards and upwards.

Anyway, views on the above hand would be appreciated and where I could've played it better/found a fold on the river.

Asho

* PS - For future reference if I accidentally rebuy into a tournament by accident again, if I call customer services would they be able to remove and refund me, or is there no going back at this point? It was a complete accident but I take full responsibility for it. I am still up for this month anyway so not a disaster, but I'll certainly be removing winnings from my account going forward and depositing on a pay-by-play basis. Just one of those things I guess...

Comments

  • mumsiemumsie Member Posts: 7,268
    Asho28 said:



    Asho

    * PS - For future reference if I accidentally rebuy into a tournament by accident again, if I call customer services would they be able to remove and refund me, or is there no going back at this point? It was a complete accident but I take full responsibility for it. I am still up for this month anyway so not a disaster, but I'll certainly be removing winnings from my account going forward and depositing on a pay-by-play basis. Just one of those things I guess...

    Yes, you can get your moneyback.

    I was playing the sunday £110 with a won seat , when i was eliminated the re-buy window popped up and i clicked re-buy by mistake, it took the £100.

    Im not used to rebuys so wasn't expecting a window to pup up at this time

    I immediately sat out , closed the table and contacted customer services, via the live chat, they told me to get in touch when the tourney ended, i did and was reimbursed the next day , i think a higher authority had to okay it.

    Now when i play a high buyin tournie, i withdraw to paypal so i don't have enough cash to cover a rebuy and transfer the money back when the tourney is over.
  • Asho28Asho28 Member Posts: 763
    @mumsie - thanks for the heads up. I'll be sure to do this next time.

    I promptly took most of the funds out of my account last night, so hopefully there will be no repeat of this scenario.
  • madprofmadprof Member Posts: 3,296
    mumsie said:

    Asho28 said:



    Asho

    * PS - For future reference if I accidentally rebuy into a tournament by accident again, if I call customer services would they be able to remove and refund me, or is there no going back at this point? It was a complete accident but I take full responsibility for it. I am still up for this month anyway so not a disaster, but I'll certainly be removing winnings from my account going forward and depositing on a pay-by-play basis. Just one of those things I guess...

    Yes, you can get your moneyback.

    I was playing the sunday £110 with a won seat , when i was eliminated the re-buy window popped up and i clicked re-buy by mistake, it took the £100.

    Im not used to rebuys so wasn't expecting a window to pup up at this time

    I immediately sat out , closed the table and contacted customer services, via the live chat, they told me to get in touch when the tourney ended, i did and was reimbursed the next day , i think a higher authority had to okay it.

    Now when i play a high buyin tournie, i withdraw to paypal so i don't have enough cash to cover a rebuy and transfer the money back when the tourney is over.
    Charki Cristal? You've got a £100 in you pokerpiggybank?? :p
  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited July 2020
    I suppose I'll avoid spending much time on this but you should likely bet smaller on flop & turn -definitely on the turn, strongly polarising on the flop seems reasonable) - reasons being we *should* be up against a tight calling range (i.e. non-BB, likely a high fraction of 66-TT, suited connectors maybe 76s-KQs with some frequency and the odd AT-AQs) and we don't want to bet large to avoid isolating ourselves against the top of our opponents range (i.e. the nuts) - by betting smaller we keep the hands in that we can beat, especially on the turn where his nuttishness increases, i.e. the large fraction of small-medium pocket pairs - if we isolate ourselves against full houses and flushes our hand suddenly drops significantly in equity. To note, this isn't because our individual hand prefers this bet size, it is a good option for our entire range

    Anyway, neglecting bet size, I am quite convinced our decision on the river is a bet / fold. Why? We bet roughly 66% for two streets and get called, our opponent is going to have a high density of pocket pairs with a heart, flushes, full houses, and perhaps a small % of Jxss that he floated the flop with. Most of that range is weak-to-medium in strength and will be heavily incentivised to check behind, moreover, his good hands that might want to bet actually nearly all beat our K high flush (of course depending on his exact calling range, I am assuming they have a regularish calling range preflop) - finally, he will have very few bluffs. point being, against his likely range we are incentivised to bet small to extract value from his weak-to-mid strength hands - also our opponents' range doesn't contain any hands that are obviously likely to bluff that would make checking higher EV than betting.

    Against his over-bet we should fold, our hand is bluff-catching and we're not blocking any hands that *should* be using this size in this situation, i.e. full houses/quads
  • loosecamelloosecamel Member Posts: 152
    VWP winning a seat to the major Asho! Agreed with pretty much everything @percival09 says in particular betting turn smaller and bet folding river with a largish size (basically trying to get value exclusively from 7x's that will find it hard to fold, all better hands than us shove and all pp fold regardless of size imo). I like the idea of betting flop slightly larger as, with this particular hand, we have great equity vs villains range of pairs and could fold out his A highs but we don't mind getting called. This also allows us to bet smaller (relative to the pot) on turn if we hit our Q/K/heart but a greater chip amount than a 1/3-1/2 pot would give if we had 1/3-1/2'd the flop.

    I think on this board we should be checking a lot for what it's worth and I think in this spot I would be checking too, I'd be interested to see what you think of checking the flop here @percival09?

    As played, definitely fold river :)
  • Asho28Asho28 Member Posts: 763
    Thanks for your input @percival09 & @loosecamel

    I personally feel my bet size on the flop wasn't too bad, but definitely the turn bet should've been smaller and the check on the river wasn't great either baring in mind I was (wrongly) prepared to call an all in. I also failed to address the range of hands my opponent could've called the flop and turn with, which lead to mass panic when they shoved. A catalogue of errors in all honesty.

    In terms of the idea of checking the flop, if I'm the pre-flop aggressor, I've always taught myself to lead the flop regardless of whether we hit on most occasions, although I agree there was some merit to checking this particular one. That said, I didn't want to show any weakness in a high-stakes tourney where experienced players are ready to pounce on any mistake.

    The more I play this hand back, the poorer the call on the river becomes. As I mentioned earlier, the decision to call was made from a mix of panic and inexperience. Best way to improve is to learn from your errors, and this is certainly one for me to learn from.
  • loosecamelloosecamel Member Posts: 152
    Asho28 said:

    Thanks for your input @percival09 & @loosecamel


    In terms of the idea of checking the flop, if I'm the pre-flop aggressor, I've always taught myself to lead the flop regardless of whether we hit on most occasions, although I agree there was some merit to checking this particular one. That said, I didn't want to show any weakness in a high-stakes tourney where experienced players are ready to pounce on any mistake.

    It is certainly true that you want c-bet often, but to use a more clear cut example;

    You raise from MP and hold AJo, everyone folds but BB. Flop comes out;
    267hh. This is the type of board you are much better off checking back and not c-betting as BB range is going to be far more weighted towards low suited connectors / pp than your own range is, to cut it short you open yourself up to difficulties moving forward. Whereas, if the board comes out; K93 rainbow, you'd definitely want to cbet.

    In regards to this specific hand, being this deep I can see an argument going either way, but I'm not totally sure that's why I've thrown the question to percival who had a very solid thought process. FWIW, i'd rather be cbetting whatever lower flush draws we have here and checking higher ones as you realise your equity more often with high card fd's.

    As far as I understand the game (which admittedly is far from perfect), with low paired boards like this the majority of the hands you have, your range, is going to want to check more often than bet. I could be wildly wrong and would be more than happy to be slapped down and told otherwise though. These types of board textures are more difficult to navigate than say AQx when you're the preflop raiser. As a disclosure, everything I said could be completely backwards, so take with a pinch of salt, these are just some of the ideas I have when I really try to think about it.
  • RinkhalsRinkhals Member Posts: 212
    Without knowing the previous actions of the villain it's always difficult to comment. Where they passive, aggressive or somewhere in between?

    It makes a big difference to how to play the streets.

    I'd have been asking what could he have called the flop with? A7, 33, AJ or a PP?

    Did he insta call the turn when it came a J?

    I think by the river, flush or not, neityer a check or a jam is an option given pocket kings just got there as well. I'd have made a blocking bet of around 1/3 pot, say 1200 - 1500. If he jammed then given how he's called down until then I'd have likely laid it down.

    Painfull but you'd still have around 8.5k. He might have just flat called that bet in case you'd been betting KK. The check screamed weakness, no offence. A good ploy if you where trying to induce a jam and one I quite like to do myself, but in that situation given the betting, no.

    Blocking bet or check fold for me.
  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804

    VWP winning a seat to the major Asho! Agreed with pretty much everything @percival09 says in particular betting turn smaller and bet folding river with a largish size (basically trying to get value exclusively from 7x's that will find it hard to fold, all better hands than us shove and all pp fold regardless of size imo). I like the idea of betting flop slightly larger as, with this particular hand, we have great equity vs villains range of pairs and could fold out his A highs but we don't mind getting called. This also allows us to bet smaller (relative to the pot) on turn if we hit our Q/K/heart but a greater chip amount than a 1/3-1/2 pot would give if we had 1/3-1/2'd the flop.

    I think on this board we should be checking a lot for what it's worth and I think in this spot I would be checking too, I'd be interested to see what you think of checking the flop here @percival09?

    As played, definitely fold river :)

    Definitely fine, I am torn between the best strategy on the flop between polarising, betting small and checking - I'd guess it's some mix between betting small and checking with specifically KQhh. Obviously worth noting that this is a generic strategy, as soon as additional information comes in we can alter our strategy. Even something as small as our opponent having 100% 33 here in his calling range likely dramatically affects our frequencies and maybe strategy in general. I guess though if he is calling with 33 he also has 22+, meh, still torn
  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited July 2020
    Worth noting to all players looking to make money: as loosecamel pointed out, checking here with KQhh on the flop is totally fine. Being out of position decreases our EV and incentivises us to include checks with stronger hands that perhaps wouldn't be checked
    as often if we were in position, this effect is amplified against a tight non-blinds calling range. Don't be afraid of checking OOP with a hand that doesn't need a lot of protection, we still have an opportunity to put more money in the middle if our opponent bets, e.g. we can raise, we can call and put money in later or anyway even facing a check there's still two streets left to pile money in if we choose to.

    It is very unlikely that players in low-stakes games are checking anywhere near enough strong-hands (high equity), e.g. top pairs, overpairs, flush draws - therefore a clear strategy against most opponents is to go crazy facing a check in these kinda situations because people aren't protecting their ranges at all in these games
  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited July 2020

    Asho28 said:

    Thanks for your input @percival09 & @loosecamel


    In terms of the idea of checking the flop, if I'm the pre-flop aggressor, I've always taught myself to lead the flop regardless of whether we hit on most occasions, although I agree there was some merit to checking this particular one. That said, I didn't want to show any weakness in a high-stakes tourney where experienced players are ready to pounce on any mistake.

    It is certainly true that you want c-bet often, but to use a more clear cut example;

    You raise from MP and hold AJo, everyone folds but BB. Flop comes out;
    267hh. This is the type of board you are much better off checking back and not c-betting as BB range is going to be far more weighted towards low suited connectors / pp than your own range is, to cut it short you open yourself up to difficulties moving forward. Whereas, if the board comes out; K93 rainbow, you'd definitely want to cbet.

    In regards to this specific hand, being this deep I can see an argument going either way, but I'm not totally sure that's why I've thrown the question to percival who had a very solid thought process. FWIW, i'd rather be cbetting whatever lower flush draws we have here and checking higher ones as you realise your equity more often with high card fd's.

    As far as I understand the game (which admittedly is far from perfect), with low paired boards like this the majority of the hands you have, your range, is going to want to check more often than bet. I could be wildly wrong and would be more than happy to be slapped down and told otherwise though. These types of board textures are more difficult to navigate than say AQx when you're the preflop raiser. As a disclosure, everything I said could be completely backwards, so take with a pinch of salt, these are just some of the ideas I have when I really try to think about it.
    :D Well, I think you are along the right lines in terms of betting frequencies as the OOP raiser on low boards. But this flop for example is not as bad for us as say 886, or 985. Our distribution of hands is weighted towards suited Ax and offsuit broadways - villains calling range in most cases here is compact, it is strongly weighted towards midish pocket pairs with some frequency of other hands depending on tendencies (e.g. some people call here with 98s, some don't). Although we have all of the fullhouses that our opponent does these full houses make up a much larger % of villains total range than is the case in ours (due to their range compaction).

    On this particular flop, if our opponent doesn't call pre with 33 (some do, some don't), and especially if there's little 76s etc in their range), I would guess our strategy changes to a mix between polarising and betting small, perhaps with some checking - for example JJ+ can go crazy, even overbetting the flop wouldn't be a bad thing - these situations that involve a compact range though can be heavily influenced by slight changes to the IP calling range, hence there's no clear cut answer but I think what's being discussed here represents a good generic strategy. For example I would never have expected JJ to be in his calling range here, so I would have pretty much neglected the possibility of that in their range.
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