Two planes collide in second Japan airport crash in weeks

TheEdge949 · January 3

While the loss of the 5 crew members from the Coastguard Dash 8 aircraft is very sad the fact that a full Airbus 350 managed to evacuate 379 souls is quite amazing, bordering on the miraculous. I must admit when I first got the live alert on my service and saw the devastation I was expecting a huge casualty number.

Regarding the accident there would appear to be serious failings somewhere, either with ATC, the Coastguard flight or the incoming plane, or possibly a combination of factors.

Haneda is a very modern airport with the latest systems, once an aircraft has been given clearance to land that plane has complete priority so how another aircraft can be on the designated runway at the time is almost incomprehensible.

There is almost zero opportunity for the crew of the incoming plane to see any obstacle on the runway and the onus for preventing incursions rests with ATC and all traffic on the ground. The aspect of the collision will tell us a lot about whether the Dash 8 was crossing the active runway, or positioned incorrectly for an authorised action.

The coming weeks, months and maybe years will be very interesting. Japanese aircrash investigations are notorious for the almost hierarchical manner in which they are conducted, meaning that the people at the bottom carry the responsibility for the failings of those at the top.

The French will of course be allowed to jointly investigate as Airbus is a French company so that may allow for more balance in the proceedings.

Tikay10 · January 3

It certainly was an absolute miracle that everyone on the JAL A350 escaped.

In a way, 379 people "should" have died. Glory be.

I've been following the whole thing on PPRuNe....

https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/656665-jal-incident-haneda-airport-14.html

...and the thing which I find so intriguing, but which has not generated much comment on PPRuNe yet, is the ferocity & energy of that fire. What exactly was burning? Yes, there was fuel in the tanks, but the actual fuselage seemed to catch light. Hopefully it was not the composite materials used to build the aircraft, that would have catastrophic consequences for Civil Aviation. But I can't think what else was present to burn so fiercely.

Enut · January 3

From what I've seen the Coastguard Dash 8 was apparently told to hold short of the runway, but ended up on the runway. The pilot was the only one to survive and, if it does turn out to be his error, he's got to to try and live with that. All very sad.

Surprising that ATC didn't spot the runway incursion in time to wave off the incoming plane, or maybe it was all just too late.

I'm sure everyone who has watched the accident is amazed that no one on the Airbus 350 died, they were very, very lucky in that plane.

Tikay10 · January 3

@Enut

It helped that the Japanese as a "people" are very disciplined & after being instructed "DO NOT TRY TO RETRIEVE YOUR HAND BAGGAGE" (which slows the whole process down) they evacuated in an orderly fashion.

In the Western world, I fear the outcome would have been very different indeed.

TheEdge949 · January 3

A lot would depend on which tanks were in use on that flight, from the pictures it would appear that the fusalage is entirely consumed quickly which suggests that the centre tank rather than the wing tanks was the initial flashpoint.

As for the the intensity of the fire that is a very intriguing question.

Aluminium is a fire resistant material and wont burn unless the temperature exceeds 660 deg C with the ignition point at 650 deg C.

Aviation fuel in the presence of Oxygen is capable of burning at 3,000 deg C.

At those temperatures everything would almost immediately melt creating accelerant effects.

My chemistry understanding is now exhausted.

Enut · January 3

@Tikay10

Good point about the Japanese people, very organised and honourable. The honourable part will be a problem for whoever is found to be at fault, suicide is fairly common in such situations I think. A very good friend of mine was ex BA cabin crew, one of the pilots he flew with had a close call coming into land in a built up area, he got close to a high rise building, certainly closer than he should have been. No one died, no one was even injured, the passengers probably didn't even know about it. The pilot however found it very difficult to deal with and ended up taking his own life, very sad.

With regard to the fire the A350 is apparently made from a new carbon composite material, which looks like it held off the fire very well initially but then when it reached a critical temperature quickly became uncontrollable. Certainly something to be concerned about, but lets be honest, if you're stuck inside a plane in that situation smoke inhalation will kill you before you get incinerated, so that's a plus!

HAYSIE · January 4

The captain of a plane that collided with a Japan Airlines jet said he was cleared for takeoff, but air-traffic-control transcripts tell a different story

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/captain-plane-collided-japan-airlines-145633950.html

TheEdge949 · January 4

So it looks like human error at first, as is often the case with accidents on either take off or landing. However, the investigators will take as long as is needed to establish the what, where, when, why and how before they submit full findings although interim reports are often published.

It is quite often a very small thing that creates these situations. A mis heard word, a wrong bearing, simple misunderstandings, a minor distraction in the cockpit, an unheard transmission due to multiple frequency users and often a coincidence almost too ridiculous to believe.

Runway incursions are still more frequent than most air travelers realise and although more developed CRM, automated systems and better mapping of taxiways are reducing the numbers, this is something that will always be with us.

The investigation always has two objectives. Firstly to find out what happened and why and the second is to provide recommendations to try and minimise or eradicate the chances of repetition.

The first may be easier than the second in this case

HAYSIE · January 16

Two planes collide in second Japan airport crash in weeks

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/two-planes-collide-second-japan-104206475.html

Two planes collide in second Japan airport crash in weeks

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