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More value and should I have played this differently

streetdogstreetdog Member Posts: 13
edited February 2014 in Strategy
I hope this is posted in the right place. I'm not sure if struggle is the right word but I certainly hate playing pocket pairs from 10's upwards from an early position. This example is perfect I reckon for some feedback. I was reading somehwere an opinion that you should try and keep your opening bet sizes pretty consistant to avoid giving away too much information. That said I rarely limp in (which seems to be an annoying habit at nl10 for some people, it get's pretty confusing when you get 4 limpers you raise them to 50p and they all call) I figure if I want to play my hole cards then everybody playing should be putting some money in. In this hand I'm in early position with KK, my thinking is that I obviously want customers so I don't want to bet and scare everyone off especially as I have been playing pretty tight after a couple of bad beats. I open for a pretty standard 3bb and the following happens.
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
jack100 Small blind   £0.05 £0.05 £10.11
basty2010 Big blind   £0.10 £0.15 £11.26
  Your hole cards
  • K
  • K
     
streetdog Raise   £0.30 £0.45 £10.78
setoftrips Fold        
Carnage Fold        
xxxxxxxxx
 Call   £0.30 £0.75 £4.25
jack100 Fold        
basty2010 Fold        
Flop
   
  • 6
  • K
  • 5
     
streetdog Check        
xxxxxxxxx
 Check        
Turn
   
  • 7
     
streetdog Check        
xxxxxxxxx
 Bet   £0.75 £1.50 £3.50
streetdog Call   £0.75 £2.25 £10.03
River
   
  • 2
     
streetdog Bet   £1.13 £3.38 £8.90
xxxxxxxxx
 Raise   £2.50 £5.88 £1.00
streetdog Call   £1.37 £7.25 £7.53
xxxxxxxxxx
 Show
  • 9
  • 8
     
streetdog Show
  • K
  • K
     
xxxxxxxxxx
 Win Straight to the 9 £6.70   £7.70
I've blanked the villains name cos I'm not sure of the etiquette!
I'm not saying they did anything wrong or that I was robbed. At the end of the day I want people to call my KK and then be on a draw and miss it. My question is that out of position how do I get value? If I donk the flop it looks like I made a hand, so I check and they check behind. I gave them a free card and they hit a straight. After this when I check again and they bet I call thinking that they possibly had 55, 66 or 77 and I'm laughing. Then when I bet the river to try and bump the pot up a bit and get reraised it dawns on me that 89 was a possibility. I call because a smaller set could still be a real option and the reraise isn't that big.
Thoughts anyone?
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    Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited February 2014
    Don't slowplay. Bet the flop. Hands/runouts like this are just standard, raise, bet, bet, bet situations.
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    KAM99KAM99 Member Posts: 773
    edited February 2014
    As lambert said, don't slow play. You asked how you get value, well checking the flop and the turn is definately not how to do it. That flop may look nice, but it's not exactly dry. You got flush and possible straight draw out there, and so you have to be it. Sure sometimes they are going to fold, but it's the times they don't that you get paid.

    As played I'd have been concerned on the turn when he suddenly bets pot. You thought set but didn't raise. Why not? I guess in the long run it saved you. But I'd have been worried. If he just had a PP I'd have expected him to bet the flop. I would have been highly concenred he got the straight just based on his bet, as it looks like he got something and wants to build a pot as fast as he can.
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    streetdogstreetdog Member Posts: 13
    edited February 2014
    Cheers that was pretty much what I was asking, so post flop bet to get money in and the times you win you win more which cancels out the times you come out bad when someone makes a bad call and hits. If I had been in position I would have done this because it could be seen as a c bet and I would feel less likely to have scared him off. I take your point tho. Would you go so far as to bet more than your regular opener in this case? Again if I was in position facing 1 or 2 bets pre I would raise them but not sure when I'm the one to open the betting oop?
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    KAM99KAM99 Member Posts: 773
    edited February 2014
    In Response to Re: More value and should I have played this differently:
    Cheers that was pretty much what I was asking, so post flop bet to get money in and the times you win you win more which cancels out the times you come out bad when someone makes a bad call and hits. If I had been in position I would have done this because it could be seen as a c bet and I would feel less likely to have scared him off. I take your point tho. Would you go so far as to bet more than your regular opener in this case? Again if I was in position facing 1 or 2 bets pre I would raise them but not sure when I'm the one to open the betting oop?
    Posted by streetdog
    A cbet is a continuation bet. So as the preflop raiser, regardless of position, your next bet if first to act on teh flop is a continuation bet. So don't think about if you are OOP or in. If you nromally make a cbet after you raise preflop then do so here as well or it looks dubious to villians. My cbet average is around 75% of flops.

    As to your opening bet when first to act preflop. Your bet sizing should never change based on  your hand strength. So raise with kings what you would with 77 or KJ. And on raising to limpers you should ideally raise 3xbb +1bb per limper. So if four people limp you want to raise to 70p really. If you raise lower to risk pricing them in to call. And once one does, they all will be priced in to call. Yes limping is dumb, and on sky it is done a lot, certainly at 10nl.
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    F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic Member Posts: 2,395
    edited February 2014
    I'm not saying they did anything wrong or that I was robbed. At the end of the day I want people to call my KK and then be on a draw and miss it.
    But they didn't call you on a draw because you never gave them a chance to "chase" their draw as you gave them a free card.

    You lost the absolute maximum in this hand and gained the minimum. You might think that's a strange thing to say given that you were up against the straight, but it's not. Because 90%+ of the time we're not going to be up against the straight. Not betting flop missed out on value as did not raising turn. Raising river again is also a good option that is probably profitable.
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    streetdogstreetdog Member Posts: 13
    edited February 2014
    In Response to Re: More value and should I have played this differently:
    But they didn't call you on a draw because you never gave them a chance to "chase" their draw as you gave them a free card. You lost the absolute maximum in this hand and gained the minimum. You might think that's a strange thing to say given that you were up against the straight, but it's not. Because 90%+ of the time we're not going to be up against the straight. Not betting flop missed out on value as did not raising turn. Raising river again is also a good option that is probably profitable.
    Posted by F_Ivanovic
    yeah I get you. If I think I'm in front why would I not be trying build the pot? Thanks for that chaps all much appreciated
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