Hand from roller. Should i fold? If so on which street?

waller02 · March 2014

Had not been on the table long. Only notes I have on oppo is that he has raised from utg with T6o in a previous game, although he hasn't been too active in the 10-15mins I have been on his table in this game.

His 3bet doesn't necessarily mean he is that strong given the fact my raise is from the button........was really unsure of the correct play here. Surely he isn't still betting the river with something I beat?? Is the fold the correct thing to do? Should I be folding earlier?? Should I be raising??

Help! I rarely make the correct play in spots like these!

Flop
	Small blind		250.00	250.00	30780.00
bluetoffee	Big blind		500.00	750.00	32350.50
	Your hole cards	J A
bainy1987	Fold
TommyD	Fold
Andyba	Fold
waller02	Raise		1100.00	1850.00	36777.50
	Raise		2950.00	4800.00	27830.00
bluetoffee	Fold
waller02	Call		2100.00	6900.00	34677.50
		A K A
	Bet		2000.00	8900.00	25830.00
waller02	Call		2000.00	10900.00	32677.50
Turn
		4
	Bet		4500.00	15400.00	21330.00
waller02	Call		4500.00	19900.00	28177.50
River
		9
	Bet		13500.00	33400.00	7830.00
waller02	Fold?

THEROCK573 · March 2014

hard to know without history, hard to imagine someone barreling 3 streets without trips or KK here but i think i play it the same way and sigh call river and prey you have him outkicked and not the other way round

hhyftrftdr · March 2014

Tricky spot. There are more aces in his range than ours, but with 2 on the board and one in our hand, it's pretty hard for him to have an ace here. He either has us locked up or a complete airball, the lack of an all in on the river is interesting....leaving 8k behind...is this the bet of a person trying to take you to value town, or the bet of someone who is trying to get the bluff through without risking their MTT life? Like Rocky says though, how many people triple barrel in this situation? Really tough spot!

FWIW, I wouldn't be raising at any point. In a classic way ahead/way behind scenario.

Meh, still have 30bb if we call and are beat, think I go for it. If he has it, he has it and I have to see it.

Matt237 · March 2014

Think i'm sigh calling river here. Can't fold Flop or Turn IMO

j3ono · March 2014

looking at it Ryan from my point of view he's playing the hand as I would with your hand. Just 1 question if you did fold the river why didn't you raise the flop bet to 5k and if he shoves you fold saving 1.5k?

Lambert180 · March 2014

Why would you raise the flop and virtually turn your hand into a bluff?

Can't raise at any point imo and hard to fold too. Maybe folding river is best but think we gotta call flop and turn

watto84 · March 2014

Calling and hating it! But don't think I am ever laying it down unless I have some massive read. No draws come in and pretty gross if we have been coolered.

I imagine you call and guess it was either AQ or A10. I would prob say AQ suited if I gonna zero in on a hand due to his repop pre. The continued barreling also implies they were milking or running a huge triple barrel. Which in this case I can't imagine them 4b ing out of position from the SB with your raise. You even say yourself that he hasnt been too active since you have been on the table.

But as I said at the begining of the post...... Calling and hating it.

Result?

F_Ivanovic · March 2014

I remember seeing a hand once on youtube where this guy bets an AA3 flop and Victor blom raises. Now the guy is only holding A7 and is in a situation where he's WA/WB, so what do you do? The problem is if he just flats then it very much looks like he has an ace and isn't folding. But if he raises again it looks like he's FOS. Which is exactly what he did - and he got Vitor to then re-raise all in and for them to get it in with Victor drawing almost dead (he had K2 no flush draw)

So what relevance to this hand? Basically if we call flop it looks a lot like we have an ace and I'd expect villain to shut down with say KQ/KJ or QQ/JJ as well as any bluffs he has. Also weaker aces don't fold (a lot of people's 3-bet bluff-range includes weaker aces) But if we raise flop and villain is the type that likes to be aggressive if he thinks the other person is 'at it' then we potentially get more money out of villain than we would have otherwise.

So yeah a small % of time I would consider raising flop with AJ/AQ here but given we have position and can get 3 streets of value even if villain tries to play pot control OTT then I think flatting flop nearly always is fine (with this hand as well as hands we want to bluff with)

LARSON7 · March 2014

Definatly call flop and turn, looks like a fold on the river.

It looks like he has flopped a FH and just bet really small on the flop for value, by the river he knows you have something so decides to bet 60%ish pot.

I doubt this is ever a bluff here and doubt it's ace 10.

If you did fold would be good to request it on the tv show on thursday, interesting hand.

grantorino · March 2014

With your very limited read clear call. If you are not calling here calling pre with very few reads has to be very marginal

watto84 · March 2014

In Response to Re: Hand from roller. Should i fold? If so on which street?:

I remember seeing a hand once on youtube where this guy bets an AA3 flop and Victor blom raises. Now the guy is only holding A7 and is in a situation where he's WA/WB, so what do you do? The problem is if he just flats then it very much looks like he has an ace and isn't folding. But if he raises again it looks like he's FOS. Which is exactly what he did - and he got Vitor to then re-raise all in and for them to get it in with Victor drawing almost dead (he had K2 no flush draw) So what relevance to this hand? Basically if we call flop it looks a lot like we have an ace and I'd expect villain to shut down with say KQ/KJ or QQ/JJ as well as any bluffs he has. Also weaker aces don't fold (a lot of people's 3-bet bluff-range includes weaker aces) But if we raise flop and villain is the type that likes to be aggressive if he thinks the other person is 'at it' then we potentially get more money out of villain than we would have otherwise. So yeah a small % of time I would consider raising flop with AJ/AQ here but given we have position and can get 3 streets of value even if villain tries to play pot control OTT then I think flatting flop nearly always is fine (with this hand as well as hands we want to bluff with)
Posted by F_Ivanovic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY_CPjsIhKQ

77Chris91 · March 2014

In Response to Re: Hand from roller. Should i fold? If so on which street?:

I remember seeing a hand once on youtube where this guy bets an AA3 flop and Victor blom raises. Now the guy is only holding A7 and is in a situation where he's WA/WB, so what do you do? The problem is if he just flats then it very much looks like he has an ace and isn't folding. But if he raises again it looks like he's FOS. Which is exactly what he did - and he got Vitor to then re-raise all in and for them to get it in with Victor drawing almost dead (he had K2 no flush draw) So what relevance to this hand? Basically if we call flop it looks a lot like we have an ace and I'd expect villain to shut down with say KQ/KJ or QQ/JJ as well as any bluffs he has. Also weaker aces don't fold (a lot of people's 3-bet bluff-range includes weaker aces) But if we raise flop and villain is the type that likes to be aggressive if he thinks the other person is 'at it' then we potentially get more money out of villain than we would have otherwise. So yeah a small % of time I would consider raising flop with AJ/AQ here but given we have position and can get 3 streets of value even if villain tries to play pot control OTT then I think flatting flop nearly always is fine (with this hand as well as hands we want to bluff with)
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Without any dynamic built up with the villain I think raising the flop to induce a 4-bet bluff is kinda optimistic.

OP - WP, Fold river imo. I'm not sure villain thinks he can get you to fold Ax on the river and I don't think he uses this river sizing with a worse Ax.

THEROCK573 · March 2014

In Response to Re: Hand from roller. Should i fold? If so on which street?:

looking at it Ryan from my point of view he's playing the hand as I would with your hand. Just 1 question if you did fold the river why didn't you raise the flop bet to 5k and if he shoves you fold saving 1.5k?
Posted by j3ono

raising to find out were you are??? think the spice girls were still relevant when people played like this.

if he has KX and you raise would you not kick yourself for blowing him off his hand?

Slipwater · March 2014

I'm not raising at any point here - can't see the value in doing so - and then probably calling the river too. It's a relative brick. To be honest, I think the lead could very easily be done with a weaker ace than yours (even the raise pre flop, given the one note you do have on him). He's probably not folding any ace on any street.

Call. If he has AQ - or more unlikely, AK - then so be it.

waller02 · March 2014

Mmmm, I was beating myself up at the time thinking I had made a big mistake but looking at everyone's replies I guess it wasn't as bad as I thought.

I had the feeling I might be beat but just couldn't find the fold. He had KK. It was a tough spot (well it was a tough spot for me anyway lol).

hhyftrftdr · March 2014

Cannot understand why villain hasn't shipped the river here. He must know by the turn you have an ace (should know on the flop call really), it looks like the betting has been set up to bomb the river (21k into a 20k pot).

If I have kings full on the river, I'm chucking it all in and fully expecting Ax to call.

UL Waller, deck can be harsh at times. Take comfort from the fact that most of us MTT players pay this off!

Matt237 · March 2014

In Response to Re: Hand from roller. Should i fold? If so on which street?:

Cannot understand why villain hasn't shipped the river here. He must know by the turn you have an ace (should know on the flop call really), it looks like the betting has been set up to bomb the river (21k into a 20k pot). If I have kings full on the river, I'm chucking it all in and fully expecting Ax to call. UL Waller, deck can be harsh at times. Take comfort from the fact that most of us MTT players pay this off!
Posted by hhyftrftdr

+1 Why he never shipped the river i don't understand. Set it up perfectly for a shove

DoubleAAA · April 2014

In Response to Re: Hand from roller. Should i fold? If so on which street?:

Why would you raise the flop and virtually turn your hand into a bluff? Can't raise at any point imo and hard to fold too. Maybe folding river is best but think we gotta call flop and turn
Posted by Lambert180

This. After the 3bet OOP and he triple barrells on that board we have to give him credit for AQ, AK, KK. Can we really see him doing this play with QQ, AT? Call flop and turn, hit laptop & fold river.

THEROCK573 · April 2014

In Response to Re: Hand from roller. Should i fold? If so on which street?:

In Response to Re: Hand from roller. Should i fold? If so on which street? : This. After the 3bet OOP and he triple barrells on that board we have to give him credit for AQ, AK, KK. Can we really see him doing this play with QQ, AT? Call flop and turn, hit laptop & fold river.
Posted by DoubleAAA

I'd probably be 3 betting most aces from sb to an active button raiser to be honest so he'd have me crushed a fair bit.

DoubleAAA · April 2014

In Response to Re: Hand from roller. Should i fold? If so on which street?:

In Response to Re: Hand from roller. Should i fold? If so on which street? : I'd probably be 3 betting most aces from sb to an active button raiser to be honest so he'd have me crushed a fair bit.
Posted by THEROCK573

I suppose the most important thing is what do we think of villain and what do we think he thinks about us? If you 3bet from the sb with let's say A4s and btn has called you, then called flop and turn, are you still going to fire that third barrell? If it's against someone who you have some kind of meta-game with, then yes.

I think readless in wallers situation on the btn we have to give them benefit of the doubt although it's much easier said afterwards than at the moment in time.

Hand from roller. Should i fold? If so on which street?

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