Head scratcher,,

davelufc · April 2014

First hand of a deepstack tourney so no reads,

Can I call here as it looks as though all the obvious draws missed??

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Physcobob	Small blind		10.00	10.00	5000.00
jthej	Big blind		20.00	30.00	4980.00
	Your hole cards	K 10
avm170	Call		20.00	50.00	4980.00
xxxx	Call		20.00	70.00	4980.00
davelufc	Raise		80.00	150.00	4920.00
bonessfc02	Fold
Physcobob	Fold
jthej	Fold
avm170	Call		60.00	210.00	4920.00
xxxx	Call		60.00	270.00	4920.00
Flop
		10 9 4
avm170	Check
xxxx	Check
davelufc	Bet		135.00	405.00	4785.00
avm170	Call		135.00	540.00	4785.00
xxxx	Call		135.00	675.00	4785.00
Turn
		5
avm170	Check
xxxx	Check
davelufc	Bet		500.00	1175.00	4285.00
avm170	Fold
xxxx	Call		500.00	1675.00	4285.00
River
		6
xxxx	All-in		4285.00	5960.00	0.00
davelufc ??

Matt237 · April 2014

7 8 got there. Fold

Nuggy962 · April 2014

Snap fold

Deep stack - no need to go home! Could be a slow playing set being a maniac on river. Maniac 2 pair with 9 10 or as Matt said, probably the nuts!

Just make a note and find a much better spot, u would be gutte to go home first hand calling all your stack off on too pair good kicker!

What did you do? Way posted guessing called it off?

ff55hh · April 2014

I may well get flamed for this but here goes....

1st level of an MTT. limp, limp......3 more to act...

I'm just folding K 10 pre flop.

***********

When i flop top pair against the limpers I'm pretty happy but would value bet over 50% of pot. Your hand is vulnerable and there are obvious draws.

*********************

When they both call I'm not feeling confident at all. Though only A-10, 9-10 and sets are beating us.

THIS PART I EXPECT TO BE FLAMED: Its unlikely you'll get paid through 3 streets by worse so I'm just checking back the turn. When I do that I'm only continuing on a blank river / against 1 act of aggression. I think thats the best way to get value from busted draws here.

Villain goes check/call, check/call, jam its usually a sign of strength so its a trivial fold on the river.

Just avoid the situation completely by folding K-10.

Try punishing limp callers with stronger hands and maybe raise a little more each time to see how much they will limp/call for and make a note of it.

ff55hh · April 2014

If you check back the turn the pot is only 675 so the jam is unlikely.

That being said, its still >2.5x pot so who knows :-)))))

davelufc · April 2014

The jam from oppo just didn`t feel right, thought it was a bluff.

It probably is a fold most of the time but sometimes I guess you have to go with a feeling.

Sorry but I don't agree with folding pre, K 10 suited can play well in position. Also you will never make a royal if you`re folding cards like these!!!!

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Physcobob	Small blind		10.00	10.00	5000.00
jthej	Big blind		20.00	30.00	4980.00
	Your hole cards	K 10
avm170	Call		20.00	50.00	4980.00
xxxx	Call		20.00	70.00	4980.00
davelufc	Raise		80.00	150.00	4920.00
bonessfc02	Fold
Physcobob	Fold
jthej	Fold
avm170	Call		60.00	210.00	4920.00
xxxx	Call		60.00	270.00	4920.00
Flop
		10 9 4
avm170	Check
xxxx	Check
davelufc	Bet		135.00	405.00	4785.00
avm170	Call		135.00	540.00	4785.00
xxxx	Call		135.00	675.00	4785.00
Turn
		5
avm170	Check
xxxx	Check
davelufc	Bet		500.00	1175.00	4285.00
avm170	Fold
xxxx	Call		500.00	1675.00	4285.00
River
		6
xxxx	All-in		4285.00	5960.00	0.00
davelufc	All-in		4285.00	10245.00	0.00
xxxx	Show	8 J
davelufc	Show	K 10
davelufc	Win	Pair of 10s	10245.00		10245.00

CraigSG1 · April 2014

As played I prob fold the river

But I'm never folding this pre. First level I'm prob just going to limp a long but raising is ok. My reason to limp is it's very early and the more cheap flops we can see multiway the better. I'm never looking to play big pots with one pair hands.

I'm betting more on the flop, about 180-200 to either take it down or get HU. Very wet flop. The only set we are worried about is 44. Can't see 99 l/c and same with 10s (and we do have the other 10). As played I prob check turn and look for a safe card and then check call to pick off bluffs and worse 10s.

But I don't hate the call, it doesn't really make sense and does look bluffy but as said I prob fold as it's still super early.

THEROCK573 · April 2014

never limping here or folding, iso raise 100% of the time, its defo not a snap fold either on the river, this is were a timebank comes in handy sky please :-). im betting flop and turn for value the same as uve done, my initial thoughts when he jams river are hes missed flush draw and you are ahead, just looks so bluffy and fishy, first hand of a deepstack though i think id just smile and muck and take his chips in a better spot. good call though!!!

F_Ivanovic · April 2014

Yeah I wouldn't fold this pre - if you want to play small ball then you can consider limping instead of raising. If you do choose to raise though I would make it a bigger size. Making it 80 isn't getting any of the limpers to fold - much rather make it 120.

Would bet slightly bigger on the flop like 200ish. Turn bet is fine. Can consider checking and if we had QT I think I like a check but KT is just a bit too strong to be checking it back 3 way on a wet board. River I would probably fold but calling isn't bad if you have some good feeling/reason to believe opponent might be bluffing.

Nuggy962 · April 2014

I would just be careful not to play results. Too easily done. People are more likely to bomb river with a made hand

Hope you run well

ff55hh · April 2014

Pretty mortified by this to be honest, though I'd bow to your superior knowledge rock, ivanovic, craig.

Surely if you iso raise K-10dd: hands in the 2 limpers range could include - KJ, KQ, A10, Axdd

Plus you've thrown chips away if the button/blinds get involved.

The most likely, positive outcome is that we get the c-bet through on the flop, resulting in a negligible gain in the 1st hand of an MTT.

Sometimes you lose.

Sometimes you end up in a 500bb pot with a pair of tens (can't be desirable)

I think in MTTs of this ilk the early approach is to wait for a psycho to hang himself.

Out of interest, is K-10 a never fold pre in 6-max?????

I tried to imagine from the perspective of 9-max where the first 3 were sat out which is the same??

THEROCK573 · April 2014

In Response to Re: Head scratcher,,:

Pretty mortified by this to be honest, though I'd bow to your superior knowledge rock, ivanovic, craig. Surely if you iso raise K-10dd: hands in the 2 limpers range could include - KJ, KQ, A10, Axdd Plus you've thrown chips away if the button/blinds get involved. The most likely, positive outcome is that we get the c-bet through on the flop, resulting in a negligible gain in the 1st hand of an MTT. Sometimes you lose. Sometimes you end up in a 500bb pot with a pair of tens (can't be desirable) I think in MTTs of this ilk the early approach is to wait for a psycho to hang himself. Out of interest, is K-10 a never fold pre in 6-max????? I tried to imagine from the perspective of 9-max where the first 3 were sat out which is the same??
Posted by ff55hh

im raising because i want to be the aggressor in the pot and take control of it straight away, ive played a shedload of mtts on lots of different sites and peoples limping ranges do differ but most of the time its small pairs, suited connectors or raggy suited aces. he will brick the flop most of the time anyway so we just take it down with a c bet if we can narrow the field with a preflop raise, were mega deep here anyway and have a nut making hand so i would raise everytime on a 9max table aswell as a 6max.

ff55hh · April 2014

So its a long-term catastrophe that I'd fold K-10 pre without a seconds hesitation here and also even if the limpers folded??

Personally, K-10 falls below the cut-off of hands that I'd willingly bloat a pot with at his stage.

Is it a question of an aggro v tight approach or am I totally wrong here?

Kind of hard for me to argue with you since you won ~30x more than me but if you're doing that with K-10, whats the worst hand that you're not doing this with?? Or are our own cards not the issue here?

THEROCK573 · April 2014

In Response to Re: Head scratcher,,:

So its a long-term catastrophe that I'd fold K-10 pre without a seconds hesitation here and also even if the limpers folded?? Personally, K-10 falls below the cut-off of hands that I'd willingly bloat a pot with at his stage. Is it a question of an aggro v tight approach or am I totally wrong here? Kind of hard for me to argue with you since you won ~30x more than me but if you're doing that with K-10, whats the worst hand that you're not doing this with?? Or are our own cards not the issue here?
Posted by ff55hh

wouldnt say its a long term catastrophe to fold without a seconds hesitation, i allways remeber a hand were an analyst on here who dosent work for sky anymore critisized a player for opening K10 suited and made the 2nd nut flush and got stacked early levels against the nut flush, it was very results orientated and i disagreed 100%, hes a pro and won money live but i dont think his game would be massively profitable online in mtts to be truthfull, id be raising all nut making hands and all pairs, limping along is fine too i just prefer to be the aggressor. im a fairly tight player aswell to be honest and think K10 suited is allways an open, isolating is prob open for debate but its just my personal take on it, others may disagree.

bev60 · April 2014

Suited broadways play brilliantly as an iso in position when your this deep I think. Hand just plays so well post flop. Kind of sets a nice tone for the tournament as a whole as well.

F_Ivanovic · April 2014

In Response to Re: Head scratcher,,:

I think in MTTs of this ilk the early approach is to wait for a psycho to hang himself.
Posted by ff55hh

Sometimes this will happen to you but you don't build a chip stack early by waiting for hands - you have to get involved. Besides, the best chance of you being on the benefiting end of a psycho hanging himself is by being involved in pots. So if you really don't want to bloat a pot then at least limp along.

Against 1 player I would iso near enough 100% of the time but against 2 players limping I'm more prone to just limping along with them. I think KTs is borderline strong enough to still iso raise but it's close. Reason being is that if you iso one player and c-bet it's going to be v profitable. But iso'ing 2 players and then c-betting is not going to work as well. Also we just end up in more high variance spots because c-betting and 2 barrelling is going to be more expensive than a SRP against one player.

ZIPPY146 · April 2014

hi dave,

nothing wrong with any of your early plays.your 500 turn bet tells you everything you need to know... call and he has a decent hand.with no history, you have got to tell yourself he has a decent hand even if he is bluffing.Work him out and if he is a big bluffer you will catch him later on..gl dave

hhyftrftdr · April 2014

This deep I deffo iso with K10s if I'm playing it, which I am

There are arguments for just limping along as well, but like Rocky says it's better to take control of the hand, and we have position on the limpers too.

Not sure I can find a call on the river mind....

CraigSG1 · April 2014

In Response to Re: Head scratcher,,:

In Response to Re: Head scratcher,, : Sometimes this will happen to you but you don't build a chip stack early by waiting for hands - you have to get involved. Besides, the best chance of you being on the benefiting end of a psycho hanging himself is by being involved in pots. So if you really don't want to bloat a pot then at least limp along. Against 1 player I would iso near enough 100% of the time but against 2 players limping I'm more prone to just limping along with them. I think KTs is borderline strong enough to still iso raise but it's close. Reason being is that if you iso one player and c-bet it's going to be v profitable. But iso'ing 2 players and then c-betting is not going to work as well. Also we just end up in more high variance spots because c-betting and 2 barrelling is going to be more expensive than a SRP against one player.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

This is the reason I will limp along a lot of the time deep in early levels as on Sky people are rarely folding pre. Unless I have notes on them then that may change.

Head scratcher,,

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