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Two ways to win, or one? Nah, one is fina, ta.
I like to understand things. Why they happen, why people do things. I'm just curious really. (Read that either way you want).
I play, on average, 35 DYM's most nights. Say, 200 per week, I suppose. I play PLO8, but the logic - or lack of it - works identically in all formats, including NLHE.
We don't need specific hand details, the scenario is more general, so the details are just "typical".
We are, let us say, 4 handed, with 3 paid. DYM Bubble Time, the best bit of a DYM, & the only bit that really matters. Play correctly here, & you are halfway home.
There are 12,000 chips in play, blinds are 300-600. So, an average stack is FIVE big Blinds. Five Bigs! Amazing really, but that's how these things play. And 5 Bigs is perfectly OK in a PLO8 DYM. Not so much, I'm guessing, in NLHE?
Anyway, what happens next is the thing.
A chap - lets call him Mr Limp, LIMPS in, from his (say) 5 BB "stack".
Next to act - he can be Mr Pot - now POTS it. He's committed now, he has a bowl behind. Now Mr Limp CALLS.
Why would we play that way?
We now HAVE to win at Showdown. No other choice. We are ahead at showdown, or we are bust.
This puzzles me so much that last night, I counted how many times I witnessed it. In 42 DYM's, I saw it happen 67 times.
So, a lot of players seem to like the play.
Me? I just don't get it.
If Mr Limp pots it, Mr Pot most likely folds. He does. I have meaured that, too. 80% of "pot" bets (shoves effectively) at this stage of a DYM don't get called.
So why does Mr Limp not pot it in the first place? And if gets called, fine, now he has to be ahead at Showdown if he wants to survive.
We can POT with a very wide range. We need a MUCH better range to call though. That used to be called the "gap concept". Lord knows what it is called these days. Triple range merging or somesuch I suppose.
In short, by potting it, Mr Limp gets TWO ways to win the hand. 80% of the time he does not get called. That's an 80% Freeroll. Pretty good, huh?
Instead, he limp calls, & now only has one way to win the hand. He has to be ahead at showdown.
He prefers one way to win. Me? Give me two ways, every time.
Am I wrong?
If not, why would we do that limp/call thing?
I'm genuinely interested in this, so all feedback wlcome.
Comments
I wrote.....
"....I play PLO8, but the logic - or lack of it - works identically in all formats, including NLHE....."
I suppose I should add, for the pedants, that of course, in NLHE, we CAN do the limp-call thing with monstas. The pre-flop odds of a big pair v two random cards can be pretty compelling, even more so versus a smaller pair, 80% or so. So trapping is a valid concept in NLHE, in the right spots.
This does not apply though in PLO8. We are very rarely better than 60-40 even with good aces, & I don't think pre-flop trapping works in PLO8. And you don't 'arf feel daft when it goes belly up. Trust me, I know.
Perhaps its an ego thing that once they've put chips in the pot they can't find the fold button?
Different strokes for different folks i guess.
Isn't it amazing how many times the "limpers" get there too!
If they raised pre, instead of limp/calling, they'd "get there" 80% of the time. A virtual freeroll to add 30% to our stack.
They DO win a fair amount of times, too. Which proves why they SHOULD raise pre - their hand is good enough.
OK, we only nick the Blinds, but with a (typically) 5BB stack, that has paid the rent for another orbit. During which there is every chance someone else will go busto, & we win the DYM by default. This is not a deep stacked cash game, it's a DYM, & these play very very shallow. Almost as shallow as Orford, one might say.
Watch any MTT, or cash-game, at the lower buy-in levels, & you'll see someone limp, then it gets potted, & you KNOW, 90% of the time, the limper will now call. I genuinely think this is a psychological thing.
"I won't be pushed around"
"But you just were, mate. You danced to his tune".
People don't like being pushed around, so they call out of defiance, stubbornness, spite, whatever.
How often do we see a winning player do the limp/call thing, except in very specific circumstances?
Will limp / fold
Will limp / call
Its helped making decisions in the past.
To state the obvious, I honestly believe many people who do the limp - call an all-in pot raise thing, do so as they think they are trapping.
Also, many will limp with a reasonable hand and hope to see the flop cheaply. If they do get raised, they don't see it as something to respect, but because they have a reasonable hand, they see it as an opportunity to shove, to gamble.
Yes, it's daft, but that's how I see it.