AA oop with c150bb eff stack

shakinaces · March 2015

Just line checking - does being deeper stacked make any difference to this sort of play, or is b/b/b still 'correct' and therefore this is just a case of NH/UL/next?

For 100bb it'd happily be all in on the turn with anything 99-KK possibly calling me down. Just wondered if deeper stacks makes it less certain that you should stack off with a bare-overpair.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
HYPETING	Sit out
y	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£8.71
shakinaces	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£18.23
	Your hole cards	A A
cancer2	Fold
xxxxxx	Raise		£0.40	£0.55	£14.81
minbet99	Fold
y	Call		£0.35	£0.90	£8.36
shakinaces	Raise		£1.50	£2.40	£16.73
xxxxxxx	Call		£1.20	£3.60	£13.61
y	Fold
Flop
		7 8 2
shakinaces	Bet		£2.00	£5.60	£14.73
xxxxxx	Call		£2.00	£7.60	£11.61
Turn
		4
shakinaces	Bet		£4.00	£11.60	£10.73
xxxxxxx	Call		£4.00	£15.60	£7.61
River
		9
shakinaces	All-in		£10.73	£26.33	£0.00
xxxxxxx	All-in		£7.61	£33.94	£0.00
shakinaces	Unmatched bet		£3.12	£30.82	£3.12
shakinaces	Show	A A
xxxxxxxx	Show	2 2
xxxxxxxx	Win	Three 2s	£29.42		£29.42

bassripper · March 2015

I think you played it fine although we could ask what is he calling us down with? Could be 99-JJ. Would he call things pre like suited conns? Not sure, but at this level anything is possible.

Best case scenario you're up against either 99-JJ or something like J8s, T8s or 89s. The only other thing is a whiffed FD but if we slow down we'll just have the pot taken off us.

Can't always be scared of the set at this level so i would be fine stacking off.

CraigSG1 · March 2015

It is a tough spot because villian - most of the time - has either an overpair or a set. Most overs and FD's are going to rasie/jam a lot so that leaves those.

Bottom line, you can be called by worse so its just ul and next hand please.

simonnatur · March 2015

Doesn't affect the outcome in this case , but might make a case for chk/calling river to give his missed draws a chance to bluff.

Board texture is obv nightmarish for our hand and we don't really have an option to check any street except river ?

Uridium · May 2015

Your large preflop raise created a pot size which after a standard bet-bet line trapped you with the awkward all in on the river. You would have been better off going all in preflop than on the turn or river. I see this as a preflop "mistake" rather than a postflop error.

hhyftrftdr · May 2015

In Response to Re: AA oop with c150bb eff stack:

Your large preflop raise created a pot size which after a standard bet-bet line trapped you with the awkward all in on the river. You would have been better off going all in preflop than on the turn or river. I see this as a preflop "mistake" rather than a postflop error.
Posted by Uridium

Que?

shakinaces · May 2015

In Response to Re: AA oop with c150bb eff stack:

In Response to Re: AA oop with c150bb eff stack : Que?
Posted by hhyftrftdr

The way I'm running at the moment, I'm sure I'm making worse mistakes than that tbf

Uridium · May 2015

In Response to Re: AA oop with c150bb eff stack:

In Response to Re: AA oop with c150bb eff stack : The way I'm running at the moment, I'm sure I'm making worse mistakes than that tbf
Posted by shakinaces

Ok Lets look at this another way. The pot size meant that your turn bet if called by xxxxx was going to commit xxxx all-in, the pot was £15.60 and xxxxxx had only £7.61 left behind. So you may as well have just gone all-in on the turn, which in my opinion would not be optimal. So if you check the turn and give xxxxx a free card it would be dangerous on that board as it looks like half the deck could come out and beat you. Either way I still maintain that the problem was the size of the pot on the flop which was going to get you (or xxxxxxx) comitted to being all-in on the turn or the river with just 1 pair when you bet around half the pot size.

fi33er · May 2015

all righty Shakin, yes I think you played it ok, you were hoping he was drawing to a flush that missed or had a lower op to yours i guess. with no history on the other guy you played it fine judt unlucky mate. thats nothing to the bad beats ive had tonight!! runner runner suck outs and op vs my smaller op.

good luck buddy youre a v. good player

BigBluster · May 2015

I would have checked the turn, to make the flop bet look like a standard c-bet that had missed and entice the villain to bet the turn to take it away, then check-raised big. Would've still lost my stack against this villain though.

shakinaces · May 2015

In Response to Re: AA oop with c150bb eff stack:

In Response to Re: AA oop with c150bb eff stack : Ok Lets look at this another way. The pot size meant that your turn bet if called by xxxxx was going to commit xxxx all-in, the pot was £15.60 and xxxxxx had only £7.61 left behind. So you may as well have just gone all-in on the turn, which in my opinion would not be optimal. So if you check the turn and give xxxxx a free card it would be dangerous on that board as it looks like half the deck could come out and beat you. Either way I still maintain that the problem was the size of the pot on the flop which was going to get you (or xxxxxxx) comitted to being all-in on the turn or the river with just 1 pair when you bet around half the pot size.
Posted by Uridium

I'm a bit confused though, you are recommending I just 3b shove over the initial raiser pre-flop (ie raised a 4bb open to c150bb)?

The pre-flop bet size (I thought) was the one bit of this hand I'd played close to optimally!

I can certainly see a case that I should bet much larger on the flop (say £4) to set-up a sensible sized turn all in, if I've mis-understood and this is what you mean?

That is probably a downside to trying to retain a more standard c-bet size, rather than flexing it about (particularly at these stakes) - and also a downside to 3betting too frequently (ie if I 3b things like KQ/AJ-AK/A5s here, I benefit from having a smaller standard cbet the times I get played back at and have to fold - if I only 3b KK+ then I'm pretty happy to play for stacks a large part of the time and can happily increase my cbet to 70-80%)

shakinaces · May 2015

In Response to Re: AA oop with c150bb eff stack:

I would have checked the turn, to make the flop bet look like a standard c-bet that had missed and entice the villain to bet the turn to take it away, then check-raised big. Would've still lost my stack against this villain though.
Posted by BigBluster

This is probably a bad habit of mine from playing so much micro cash... but so many oppos here are relatively passive and don't take advantage of position to stab at these pots, therefore checking mostly ends up in giving a free card / subsequent face palm when they bink their draw and I let them stack me for free.

Although yeah, when they've flopped their set in this case they would happily take over the betting lead.

shakinaces · May 2015

In Response to Re: AA oop with c150bb eff stack:

all righty Shakin, yes I think you played it ok, you were hoping he was drawing to a flush that missed or had a lower op to yours i guess. with no history on the other guy you played it fine judt unlucky mate. thats nothing to the bad beats ive had tonight!! runner runner suck outs and op vs my smaller op. good luck buddy youre a v. good player
Posted by fi33er

I'm not, but ta all the same Merlin!

Good to see you on the forums, hope to see you posting more frequently.

I've been running the same as you lately, that's why I'm taking a bit of a closer look to work out if there are any bad hits I could have avoided.

gusaments · May 2015

In Response to AA oop with c150bb eff stack:

Just line checking - does being deeper stacked make any difference to this sort of play, or is b/b/b still 'correct' and therefore this is just a case of NH/UL/next?
Posted by shakinaces

I think bet flop, check call turn (v bad turn card for our range and excellent for his), throw up on river - call half the time, fold half. If you have reads on opponent it makes this fold easier/harder. But as a default when you take the b/xc/xc line, you won't have many hands better than AA there, if any, so calling with the top of your range here can't be bad in a vacuum.

I think your river shove is a big mistake fyi - far too thin vs his range. Think about how your value range plays out on this board and where AA fits in that range. You have a bunch of backdoor flush combos that got there, sets sometimes (99), straights if you are 3betting balanced (56) and the occasional two pair, one pair is definitely not strong enough to expect to be good vs any villains calling range 50%+.

Also, when you jam river villain can never bluff, which people love to do if they think it's even marginally profitable. AA is one of the best bluff catchers here and he will sometimes value own himself with QQ-JJ that didn't 4bet pre (presuming KK 4bet gii).

grantorino · June 2015

Reads?

Don't think board is that bad

Think it's fine, with reads might c/c river

mcglynn07 · June 2015

In Response to AA oop with c150bb eff stack:

Just line checking - does being deeper stacked make any difference to this sort of play, or is b/b/b still 'correct' and therefore this is just a case of NH/UL/next? For 100bb it'd happily be all in on the turn with anything 99-KK possibly calling me down. Just wondered if deeper stacks makes it less certain that you should stack off with a bare-overpair. Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance HYPETING Sit out y Small blind £0.05 £0.05 £8.71 shakinaces Big blind £0.10 £0.15 £18.23 Your hole cards A A cancer2 Fold xxxxxx Raise £0.40 £0.55 £14.81 minbet99 Fold y Call £0.35 £0.90 £8.36 shakinaces Raise £1.50 £2.40 £16.73 xxxxxxx Call £1.20 £3.60 £13.61 y Fold Flop 7 8 2 shakinaces Bet £2.00 £5.60 £14.73 xxxxxx Call £2.00 £7.60 £11.61 Turn 4 shakinaces Bet £4.00 £11.60 £10.73 xxxxxxx Call £4.00 £15.60 £7.61 River 9 shakinaces All-in £10.73 £26.33 £0.00 xxxxxxx All-in £7.61 £33.94 £0.00 shakinaces Unmatched bet £3.12 £30.82 £3.12 shakinaces Show A A xxxxxxxx Show 2 2 xxxxxxxx Win Three 2s £29.42 £29.42
Posted by shakinaces

Hey Shakin. Very tough spot you find yourself in here.

1st you are out of position

2nd would you think about pot control when oop

3rd do you think pre flop about what boards and runout are good for your hand and with a one pair hand

4th you don't have to make this a four street hand

It just ducks when you sit down and build a stack and all or most of it goes with aces. Just some things to think about.

Good luck Danny

Matt237 · June 2015

In Response to Re: AA oop with c150bb eff stack:

Doesn't affect the outcome in this case , but might make a case for chk/calling river to give his missed draws a chance to bluff. Board texture is obv nightmarish for our hand and we don't really have an option to check any street except river ?
Posted by simonnatur

Turn?

Lambert180 · June 2015

Deffo don't think we want to be checking turn on this runout.

I might go a tiny bit bigger on flop and turn. On river I probably lean towards jamming because a lot of the hands we beat may be scared of the runout and checkback, but c/c isnt bad depending on reads, not folding ever.

AA oop with c150bb eff stack

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