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same mistake twice

weecheez1weecheez1 Member Posts: 1,680
edited December 2021 in Strategy
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancemacman65Small blind 400.00400.0024605.00weecheez1Big blind 800.001200.0020735.00 Your hole cardsJJ   lelly01Call 800.002000.0054965.00milo1989Call 800.002800.0015567.50macman65Call 400.003200.0024205.00weecheez1Check    Flop  376   macman65Check    weecheez1Check    lelly01Check    milo1989Bet 800.004000.0014767.50macman65Call 800.004800.0023405.00weecheez1Call 800.005600.0019935.00lelly01Call 800.006400.0054165.00Turn  2   macman65Check    weecheez1Bet 800.007200.0019135.00lelly01Fold    milo1989Fold    macman65Call 800.008000.0022605.00River  4   macman65Bet 8000.0016000.0014605.00weecheez1Fold    macman65Muck    macman65Win 8000.00 22605.00macman65Return 8000.000.0030605.00

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    weecheez1weecheez1 Member Posts: 1,680
    edited March 2016
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceweecheez1Small blind 400.00400.0018735.00lelly01Big blind 800.001200.0053365.00 Your hole cardshttps://www.skypoker.com/img/site/heart.gif''); color: #dd0000; font-size: 0.9em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; background-attachment: initial; display: block; background-clip: initial; background-origin: initial; background-color: #ffffff" class="heart">Khttps://www.skypoker.com/img/site/heart.gif''); color: #dd0000; font-size: 0.9em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; background-attachment: initial; display: block; background-clip: initial; background-origin: initial; background-color: #ffffff" class="heart">5   milo1989Fold    https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/hhdealer.gif''); background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-origin: initial; background-color: transparent" class="dealer">macman65Fold    weecheez1Call 400.001600.0018335.00lelly01Check    Flop  https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/heart.gif''); color: #dd0000; font-size: 0.9em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; background-attachment: initial; display: block; background-clip: initial; background-origin: initial; background-color: #ffffff" class="heart">8https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif''); color: #000000; font-size: 0.9em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; background-attachment: initial; display: block; background-clip: initial; background-origin: initial; background-color: #ffffff" class="spade">Khttps://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif''); color: #000000; font-size: 0.9em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; background-attachment: initial; display: block; background-clip: initial; background-origin: initial; background-color: #ffffff" class="spade">5   weecheez1Bet 800.002400.0017535.00lelly01Call 800.003200.0052565.00Turn  
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/diamond.gif''); color: #dd0000; font-size: 0.9em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; background-attachment: initial; display: block; background-clip: initial; background-origin: initial; background-color: #ffffff" class="diamond">A
       weecheez1Bet 800.004000.0016735.00lelly01Call 800.004800.0051765.00River  
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif''); color: #000000; font-size: 0.9em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; background-attachment: initial; display: block; background-clip: initial; background-origin: initial; background-color: #ffffff" class="spade">4
       weecheez1Bet 800.005600.0015935.00lelly01Raise 7200.0012800.0044565.00weecheez1Call 6400.0019200.009535.00lelly01Show
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif''); color: #000000; font-size: 0.9em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; background-attachment: initial; display: block; background-clip: initial; background-origin: initial; background-color: #ffffff" class="spade">8
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif''); color: #000000; font-size: 0.9em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; background-attachment: initial; display: block; background-clip: initial; background-origin: initial; background-color: #ffffff" class="spade">2
       weecheez1Muck
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/heart.gif''); color: #dd0000; font-size: 0.9em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; background-attachment: initial; display: block; background-clip: initial; background-origin: initial; background-color: #ffffff" class="heart">K
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/heart.gif''); color: #dd0000; font-size: 0.9em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; background-attachment: initial; display: block; background-clip: initial; background-origin: initial; background-color: #ffffff" class="heart">5
       lelly01WinFlush to the King19200.00 63765.00
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    weecheez1weecheez1 Member Posts: 1,680
    edited March 2016
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceweecheez1Small blind 400.00400.0018735.00lelly01Big blind 800.001200.0053365.00 Your hole cardshttps://www.skypoker.com/img/site/heart.gif''); color: #dd0000; font-size: 0.9em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; background-attachment: initial; display: block; background-clip: initial; background-origin: initial; background-color: #ffffff" class="heart">Khttps://www.skypoker.com/img/site/heart.gif''); color: #dd0000; font-size: 0.9em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; background-attachment: initial; display: block; background-clip: initial; background-origin: initial; background-color: #ffffff" class="heart">5   milo1989Fold    https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/hhdealer.gif''); background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-origin: initial; background-color: transparent" class="dealer">macman65Fold    weecheez1Call 400.001600.0018335.00lelly01Check    Flop  
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/heart.gif''); color: #dd0000; font-size: 0.9em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; background-attachment: initial; display: block; background-clip: initial; background-origin: initial; background-color: #ffffff" class="heart">8
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif''); color: #000000; font-size: 0.9em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; background-attachment: initial; display: block; background-clip: initial; background-origin: initial; background-color: #ffffff" class="spade">K
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif''); color: #000000; font-size: 0.9em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; background-attachment: initial; display: block; background-clip: initial; background-origin: initial; background-color: #ffffff" class="spade">5
       weecheez1Bet 800.002400.0017535.00lelly01Call 800.003200.0052565.00Turn  
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/diamond.gif''); color: #dd0000; font-size: 0.9em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; background-attachment: initial; display: block; background-clip: initial; background-origin: initial; background-color: #ffffff" class="diamond">A
       weecheez1Bet 800.004000.0016735.00lelly01Call 800.004800.0051765.00River  
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif''); color: #000000; font-size: 0.9em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; background-attachment: initial; display: block; background-clip: initial; background-origin: initial; background-color: #ffffff" class="spade">4
       weecheez1Bet 800.005600.0015935.00lelly01Raise 7200.0012800.0044565.00weecheez1Call 6400.0019200.009535.00lelly01Show
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif''); color: #000000; font-size: 0.9em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; background-attachment: initial; display: block; background-clip: initial; background-origin: initial; background-color: #ffffff" class="spade">8
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif''); color: #000000; font-size: 0.9em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; background-attachment: initial; display: block; background-clip: initial; background-origin: initial; background-color: #ffffff" class="spade">2
       weecheez1Muck
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/heart.gif''); color: #dd0000; font-size: 0.9em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; background-attachment: initial; display: block; background-clip: initial; background-origin: initial; background-color: #ffffff" class="heart">K
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/heart.gif''); color: #dd0000; font-size: 0.9em; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat; background-attachment: initial; display: block; background-clip: initial; background-origin: initial; background-color: #ffffff" class="heart">5
       lelly01WinFlush to the King19200.00 63765.00
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    weecheez1weecheez1 Member Posts: 1,680
    edited March 2016
    dont know what ive done too second hand lol
    both hands were within five minutes of each other in the first i think i let my opponent get there by not betting enough i was still thinking about it when i done the same thing in hand two
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    weecheez1weecheez1 Member Posts: 1,680
    edited March 2016
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    weecheez1 Small blind   400.00 400.00 18735.00
    lelly01 Big blind   800.00 1200.00 53365.00
      Your hole cards
    • K
    • 5
         
    milo1989 Fold     
    macman65 Fold     
    weecheez1 Call   400.00 1600.00 18335.00
    lelly01 Check     
    Flop
       
    • 8
    • K
    • 5
         
    weecheez1 Bet   800.00 2400.00 17535.00
    lelly01 Call   800.00 3200.00 52565.00
    Turn
       
    • A
         
    weecheez1 Bet   800.00 4000.00 16735.00
    lelly01 Call   800.00 4800.00 51765.00
    River
       
    • 4
         
    weecheez1 Bet   800.00 5600.00 15935.00
    lelly01 Raise   7200.00 12800.00 44565.00
    weecheez1 Call   6400.00 19200.00 9535.00
    lelly01 Show
    • 8
    • 2
       
    weecheez1 Muck
    • K
    • 5
       
    lelly01 Win Flush to the King 19200.00   63765.00
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    hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    edited March 2016
    Looks like you need to tinker with your bet sizing. Just min betting every street achieves very little. Look at the board texture, the relative strength of your hand vs a perceived range the villain could have. Min betting not only gives villains great odds to outdraw you, it also means you are getting the minimum value out of your hands.

    Hand 1 - 3 limpers and JJ in the big blind? Should be a meaty raise. You want to get it HU ideally as jacks can be tricky to play multiway and OOP. As played you could raise the flop and GII vs worse as you're so under-repped. It's a very co-ordinated board and you have 3 people in the pot with you, plenty of draws/pairs and draws that will come along for the ride if you put them to the test, but its not a great flop for you. EDIT....are you just calling the minimum to keep up the weak pretence? It's a risky play and means you have to play pretty disciplined down all streets.

    Hand 2- think limping or raising is fine pre, will depend on who is in the BB. Half pot on flop is fine (though does look like you're just pressing buttons with little thought behind it) Once they call that flop, they probably have something, so if you're gonna bet the turn, which is good, it should be more than a min bet. TBH come the river I can see why you'd call cos you look so weak and its a good card for the villain to rep. Think there are merits to bet (a decent amount, not 800!)/folding and check/calling the river, depending on the villain.

    PS, better if you blank out the names of others involved in hands, if you want fully impartial advice and thoughts.
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    weecheez1weecheez1 Member Posts: 1,680
    edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: same mistake twice:
    Looks like you need to tinker with your bet sizing. Just min betting every street achieves very little. Look at the board texture, the relative strength of your hand vs a perceived range the villain could have. Min betting not only gives villains great odds to outdraw you, it also means you are getting the minimum value out of your hands. Hand 1 - 3 limpers and JJ in the big blind? Should be a meaty raise. You want to get it HU ideally as jacks can be tricky to play multiway and OOP. As played you could raise the flop and GII vs worse as you're so under-repped. It's a very co-ordinated board and you have 3 people in the pot with you, plenty of draws/pairs and draws that will come along for the ride if you put them to the test, but its not a great flop for you. EDIT....are you just calling the minimum to keep up the weak pretence? It's a risky play and means you have to play pretty disciplined down all streets. Hand 2- think limping or raising is fine pre, will depend on who is in the BB. Half pot on flop is fine (though does look like you're just pressing buttons with little thought behind it) Once they call that flop, they probably have something, so if you're gonna bet the turn, which is good, it should be more than a min bet. TBH come the river I can see why you'd call cos you look so weak and its a good card for the villain to rep. Think there are merits to bet (a decent amount, not 800!)/folding and check/calling the river, depending on the villain. PS, better if you blank out the names of others involved in hands, if you want fully impartial advice and thoughts.
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    thanks i knew there was something else i was forgeting i am using the button raises because ifind it easier to keep up with the clock i tried to do it manually but the laptop takes over and puts in predictive numbers i am trying to do things right and not just presss buttons but its harder than it looks lol especially laying hands down but the fun is still there and thats what matters to me
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    craigcu12craigcu12 Member Posts: 3,960
    edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: same mistake twice:
    In Response to Re: same mistake twice : thanks i knew there was something else i was forgeting i am using the button raises because ifind it easier to keep up with the clock i tried to do it manually but the laptop takes over and puts in predictive numbers i am trying to do things right and not just presss buttons but its harder than it looks lol especially laying hands down but the fun is still there and thats what matters to me
    Posted by weecheez1
    Rather than use the laptop mouse pad you should get a mouse with a wheel. The mouse itself will make arrow movement alot easier and the wheel itself is a great way to move the slider up or down when putting in a bet size.

    Min betting and min raising will always put you in difficult spots. You keeping most an opponents range in and can make it very difficult to know whether or not a hand should be layed down. When making an aggressive raise you should get a beeter idea of what hands will be in the range and you can get it in more frquently whilst still ahead

    H1  You'll be sitting ahead and holding the best hand but it's a very vunerable one. The last thing you want is a multiway pot. now this you should make a raise 5BB+ to push some of the callers away leaving it HUs.
    If your not raising it pre you've got to lead out on the flop charging any draws and over cards to continue. It's pointless playing the hand and you might as well have folded preflop if your only intention was to min bet and call because as the streets where on JJ will begin to lose all it's value and end up being folded. macman has gone pots ize on the river but 5 shouldn't normally be in his range and he could well be bluffing a missed flush draw thinking you'e a weak hand yourself.

    H2 preflop and flop are fine but on the turn you must bet larger, the A might scare away 8x and 5x but it shouldn'ts top Kx or flush draws and he does have position. Doing the min betting as you did is what made you lose as much as you did, he's in position sees lots of weak bets making the river card a good bluff card and you make what most will say is a good decision and lose against the flush.
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    hhyftrftdrhhyftrftdr Member Posts: 8,036
    edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: same mistake twice:
    In Response to Re: same mistake twice : Rather than use the laptop mouse pad you should get a mouse with a wheel. The mouse itself will make arrow movement alot easier and the wheel itself is a great way to move the slider up or down when putting in a bet size. Min betting and min raising will always put you in difficult spots. You keeping most an opponents range in and can make it very difficult to know whether or not a hand should be layed down. When making an aggressive raise you should get a beeter idea of what hands will be in the range and you can get it in more frquently whilst still ahead H1  You'll be sitting ahead and holding the best hand but it's a very vunerable one. The last thing you want is a multiway pot. now this you should make a raise 5BB+ to push some of the callers away leaving it HUs. If your not raising it pre you've got to lead out on the flop charging any draws and over cards to continue. It's pointless playing the nand and you might as well have folded preflop if your only intention was to min bet and call because as the streets where on JJ will begin to lose all it's value and end up being folded. macman has gone pots ize on the river but 5 shouldn't normally be in his range and he could well be bluffing a missed flush draw thinking you'e a weak hand yourself. H2 preflop and flop are fine but on the turn you must bet larger, the A might scare away 8x and 5x but it shouldn'ts top Kx or flush draws and he does have position. Doing the min betting as you did is what made you lose as much as you did, he's in position sees lots of weak bets making the river card a good bluff card and you make what most will say is a good decision and lose against the flush.
    Posted by craigcu12
    He's made up the sb in a multiway, limped pot, he has many combinations of 5x in his range.
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    craigcu12craigcu12 Member Posts: 3,960
    edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: same mistake twice:
    In Response to Re: same mistake twice : He's made up the sb in a multiway, limped pot, he has many combinations of 5x in his range.
    Posted by hhyftrftdr
    Your true. I certain don't recommend him calling. The key point I tried to make out is that his weak betting means he'll have no real idea of the opponennts range and spots like that river could be as  big a bluff as the real thing where as good aggression would mean 5 isn't likely to be in the range meaning he can call in confidence of expecting a bluff.
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    weecheez1weecheez1 Member Posts: 1,680
    edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: same mistake twice:
    In Response to Re: same mistake twice : Your true. I certain don't recommend him calling. The key point I tried to make out is that his weak betting means he'll have no real idea of the opponennts range and spots like that river could be as  big a bluff as the real thing where as good aggression would mean 5 isn't likely to be in the range meaning he can call in confidence of expecting a bluff.
    Posted by craigcu12
    thanks for  the advice craig i will try the mouse wheel my next question is about raising you talk about 5x do you use this size of bet as standard or does it depend on your stack size the reason im asking is i am getting myself into better positions lately but i still tend to end up either underbetting or jamming all in sometimes it pays most of the time i think i lose value or get blown out of the water by better hands i managed a few times to sat into the main but when i play its as if they know right away and early exits follow
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    craigcu12craigcu12 Member Posts: 3,960
    edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: same mistake twice:
    In Response to Re: same mistake twice : thanks for  the advice craig i will try the mouse wheel my next question is about raising you talk about 5x do you use this size of bet as standard or does it depend on your stack size the reason im asking is i am getting myself into better positions lately but i still tend to end up either underbetting or jamming all in sometimes it pays most of the time i think i lose value or get blown out of the water by better hands i managed a few times to sat into the main but when i play its as if they know right away and early exits follow
    Posted by weecheez1

    A standard raise is 3BB during the early stages and 2BB in the late stages. My adjustment comes down to how many big blinds are in the chipstacks, the strength of my hand, how it’s equity will fare post flop, my position and the number of limpers.

    1010-QQ AJ-AK KQ all great equity but the last thing you want is a multi way pots so a chunky raise is whats best. During the early (sometimes mid) stages it’s deepstacked meaning the loose players will caller larger bets and play a wider range so a raise will 3-6BB depending on position and amount of limpers. If I'm sitting in the blinds and have a lot of limpers a raise will 8bb+ knowing how much wider they call.

     

    In the mid to late stages 3BB is usually done when sitting UTG and UTG+1 because you want to keep the callers low and players do now start to tighten up. In late position it’s usually 2-4BB depending on how much limping is made. If I'm in the blind it could be anything from a standard SBvBB raise to a 3bet AI with 20 or less BBs depending on how big the opponents chipstack will be to a small 3bet or how short stacked he’d be if he were to call that way you'll know when an AI flop can lead to a fold and when hit's best to make the jam preflop. If the pot is a multi way limped pot then 5-7BB is recommended or just go AI.  EDIT: If it's something like KQ or 1010 then check could be best because these hands wil get into an awful lot of bad flops and when sitting OOP last thing you want is an knowing you could have lack of equity post flop,

     

    When you play in the main event you’ll be up against decent players who make notes of you, put you on hands and read the boards well. What you need to do here is keep your betting at a balance with both your decent hands and the weak ones that way it’ll be harder for players to read you meaning you’ll keep in those which are behind as well as those sitting ahead. Cbetting AK and  AQ high a great example of this. You might not be ahead but you do have 2 over cards on most flops and will hit the card sometimes. What’s best is that you’re QQ KK or AA will get more worse hands making the call.

     

    During the late stages your intention is to keep the pot low with intent to make a hero call on the river or ensure all in on the turn if not get the stack size which allows you to call most river cards. A  common method used to help get stronger hands get more value is playing a high card flush draw agressive. High card flush draws will give us 9-15 possible outs depending on what the opponent is holding and what our second suited card is. What we’ll do is build up the pot with an aggressive cbet to help scare weak hands away and then we’ll either take the free card or double barrel jam if the pots small still small enough in relation to the chipstacks and it’s turn card is a good on to use. If your hand is good but extremely vulnerable and possibly behind then it's about keeping the pot small and allow your opponent to attempt a river bluff. It’s worth making the odd check with a good hand as well ensuring your opponent will take more care with his bet sizes when doing a bluff.

     

    mattbates and tommyD will know alot more but this here will help with the basics of being able to use aggression to prevent you running into difficult spots and being able to balance your range.

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    weecheez1weecheez1 Member Posts: 1,680
    edited March 2016
    craig thats a brilliant answer thanks for taking the time to write it i am happy with the way my game is progressing but i still make too many rookie mistakes i will try to incorporate what you have written over time
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    craigcu12craigcu12 Member Posts: 3,960
    edited March 2016
    In Response to Re: same mistake twice:
    craig thats a brilliant answer thanks for taking the time to write it i am happy with the way my game is progressing but i still make too many rookie mistakes i will try to incorporate what you have written over time
    Posted by weecheez1
    your welcome

    Due to it's length I didn't get round to correcting the grammer but i've did that now, also you'll notice an edit mark where i've put a bit of info about when it might be best to just check or complete the SB during a multiway pot .
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