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Extra place races

Phantom66Phantom66 Member Posts: 5,542
edited March 2017 in Chat with Channing
I'm very much a novice on the horse betting, but I have been dabbling with SkyBet's Extra Place races with some moderate success over a small sample.

These are typically 12 horse races (and must have at least 10 runners) with 4 places paid at 1/5 odds for the place.

Is that good for us punters? If so how would you be looking to take advantage?

I have been betting 2 horses both e/w at odds where I will at least get my money back on the place. 

There are usually a few horses we can totally rule out and I try and pick races with only 1 or 2 at shorter odds than my shortest selection but with some reason to oppose. I tend to pick one at around 5/1 and one at least 8/1 with a decent place record and hopefully some course/distance form.

So far I have 1 winner, 7 places (3 of those 4th) and 2 unplaced which is a nice return. Probably beginners luck though so I am very interested in your thoughts and anyone else for that matter.

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    Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited February 2017
    I haven't looked into it on Sky, but do you know if they drop the place odds from 1/4 to 1/5 when they do extra place races, or do Sky do 1/5 across the board?


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    chillingchilling Member Posts: 3,774
    edited February 2017
    I dont think the bookies will lose any skin from their hooters.Its another carrot, the races they choose are always very competitive.
    The High Street bookies dont even need to lay horses these days, if they have 4 or more FOBTs in their shop. I think there is some kind of ongoing decision still to be made about limits on FOBTs.Sky have no shops of course, but have the casino, bingo etc.
    Imo, it doesnt change anything too much.
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    Phantom66Phantom66 Member Posts: 5,542
    edited February 2017
    In Response to Re: Extra place races:
    I haven't looked into it on Sky, but do you know if they drop the place odds from 1/4 to 1/5 when they do extra place races, or do Sky do 1/5 across the board?
    Posted by Lambert180
    I don't know the exact break point in runners, but sometimes you get 1/5 odds for 3 places and sometimes 1/4 odds for 3 places.

    There have to be 10 runners for the extra place to count.
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    Phantom66Phantom66 Member Posts: 5,542
    edited February 2017
    In Response to Re: Extra place races:
    I dont think the bookies will lose any skin from their hooters.Its another carrot, the races they choose are always very competitive. The High Street bookies dont even need to lay horses these days, if they have 4 or more FOBTs in their shop. I think there is some kind of ongoing decision still to be made about limits on FOBTs.Sky have no shops of course, but have the casino, bingo etc. Imo, it doesnt change anything too much.
    Posted by chilling
    Yes I am sure the bookies are not running scared of me and any punters taking up this offer.

    I haven't backed every one of these, I do try and be selective, just as if I bet another offer like money back if horse 2nd or 3rd.

    So I would tend to avoid a low grade handicap 6f sprint for example.

    As stated I really am very new to this and keeping it very very small ball and trying to build up a bit of knowledge, just entered Brrrrrr's tipster league so thought I would try and get myself up the learning curve a bit.

    If there is any +EV edge for us punters in any shape or form and even if it is small I will try and take advantage.
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    chillingchilling Member Posts: 3,774
    edited February 2017
    In Response to Re: Extra place races:
    In Response to Re: Extra place races : Yes I am sure the bookies are not running scared of me and any punters taking up this offer. I haven't backed every one of these, I do try and be selective, just as if I bet another offer like money back if horse 2nd or 3rd. So I would tend to avoid a low grade handicap 6f sprint for example. As stated I really am very new to this and keeping it very very small ball and trying to build up a bit of knowledge, just entered Brrrrrr's tipster league so thought I would try and get myself up the learning curve a bit. If there is any +EV edge for us punters in any shape or form and even if it is small I will try and take advantage.
    Posted by Phantom66
    If you are new to the nags, its win only1-4 runners.....quarter the odds 5-7 runners paying two places.....fifth the odds8-11 runners paying three places. Quarter the odds in a 12 runner + race ( must be a handicap though  ) Quarter the odds 16+ runners paying four places( must be a handicap though ) Bookies can add certain special/ novelty books as they please. Get yourself a racing diary Phantom, its all in there.
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    Phantom66Phantom66 Member Posts: 5,542
    edited February 2017
    In Response to Re: Extra place races:
    In Response to Re: Extra place races : If you are new to the nags, its win only1-4 runners.....quarter the odds 5-7 runners paying two places.....fifth the odds8-11 runners paying three places. Quarter the odds in a 12 runner + race ( must be a handicap though  ) Quarter the odds 16+ runners paying four places( must be a handicap though ) Bookies can add certain special/ novelty books as they please. Get yourself a racing diary Phantom, its all in there.
    Posted by chilling
    Cheers,

    So in a 10/11 horse race the extra place is always good value when the offer is on.

    For a 12 horse race, we need to balance the extra place v the reduction in odds
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    chillingchilling Member Posts: 3,774
    edited February 2017
    In Response to Re: Extra place races:
    In Response to Re: Extra place races : Cheers, So in a 10/11 horse race the extra place is always good value when the offer is on. For a 12 horse race, we need to balance the extra place v the reduction in odds
    Posted by Phantom66
    I would doubt the bookie chappies would give an extra place for 10-11 runners. Normally its 15 runners, as its only one off the 16 required for four places anyway.  Note its in handicaps!
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    Phantom66Phantom66 Member Posts: 5,542
    edited February 2017
    In Response to Re: Extra place races:
    In Response to Re: Extra place races : I would doubt the bookie chappies would give an extra place for 10-11 runners. Normally its 15 runners, as its only one off the 16 required for four places anyway.  Note its in handicaps!
    Posted by chilling
    That is exactly what they are doing.

    It is a n"Extra Place Race" promotion, they tend to just do 1 a day.

    Todays is the 3:00 at Southwell with 11 declared runners (the extra place will still count if there are 10 runners).

    4 places paid at 1/5 odds.

    It doesn't fit my betting profile for this offer though as it is a 5f handicap sprint and there are currently 2x7/2 J/Favs so I will not be investing.


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    Phantom66Phantom66 Member Posts: 5,542
    edited February 2017
    Had a couple of blanks since the OP.

    Just had a 14/1 winner at Leopardstown today so overall...

    I have 2 winners, 7 places (3 of those 4th) and 7 unplaced. Still in profit. Still keeping it very smallball.


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    chillingchilling Member Posts: 3,774
    edited February 2017
    I think the most difficult thing to do when get ahead, is not to give it back. Maybe put a thread , updates in betting chat.gl.



    ps deleted the other post as most nag followers could write a book about their thoughts and views.Discipline would be No 1 on my list, one that i dont adhere to, unfortunately.
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    Phantom66Phantom66 Member Posts: 5,542
    edited February 2017
    Yeah I'll keep updates off this thread, I would be interested in any advice as to whether that using these extra place races is giving us some +EV and how best to use it if there is.

    I don't intend to blog about my ventures into horse racing. Apart from an annual pin stick in the Grand National I have only just begun this year and I am betting like 0.1 pt e/w while I try and learn about.

    I certainly don't intend to get carried away with a bit of beginners luck I have had in these races or my 2 selections so far in the NAPS league that Brrrrrr runs.

    I think it is important to track results though, not get carried away with success and not go chasing when you lose, applies to everything not just the horses and I have made mistakes in the past.
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    NChanningNChanning Member Posts: 852
    edited February 2017

     Hi Phantom,

     You have definitely latched on something that Sky Bet offer as a loss leader and therefore, by definition, they should lose and you should win. That ought to happen whichever horses you pick as the offer is so good.

     In order to maximise your profits you'd be better concentrating on races where one horse is a short price, perhaps 3/1 or less, as now the other horses are all pushed out for the win but really their chance of placing hasn't changed much so you are getting a place bet that is even better.

     The second thing I would look for is horses that have solid form...you want to know that they are likely to jump round and finish in the frame even if they don't win. I would way rather have a horse that has a history of plodding on for a place without having the class to win than one which is a bad jumper which could fall or one that is very inexperienced and running in a handicap for the first time meaning it could win by miles or just do terribly.

     The third thing to note is that due to something called the favourite/longshot bias, the horses that are close to the front of the betting, (those with the shortest prices), are priced closer to their true chance of winning and those at 25/1 and up should often "really" be 100/1 or more. If you focus on those horses in the 6/1 to 12/1 bracket you will do better.

     Best of luck with it all.
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    Phantom66Phantom66 Member Posts: 5,542
    edited February 2017
    Thanks Neil, useful stuff.

    Obviously not all the extra place races have the ideal shape but I look out for them every day now.

    I do look at the place percentage and try and pick horses with a decent recent run.

    Just beginning to get my head around the basics of the handicapping, classes etc, but as you say if the book is set up right you dont need to know much to make bets that should be profitable just based on the odds.

    edit:Helps when one of them wins, had a 1-2-3 today with an 8/1 winner :-)
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    MISTY4MEMISTY4ME Member Posts: 6,164
    edited February 2017
    In Response to Re: Extra place races:
    Thanks Neil, useful stuff. Obviously not all the extra place races have the ideal shape but I look out for them every day now. I do look at the place percentage and try and pick horses with a decent recent run. Just beginning to get my head around the basics of the handicapping, classes etc, but as you say if the book is set up right you dont need to know much to make bets that should be profitable just based on the odds. edit:Helps when one of them wins, had a 1-2-3 today with an 8/1 winner :-)
    Posted by Phantom66
    The extra place races are really good value imo. though SKY do cut the each way terms to 1/5th. I've actually had some good results on bigger priced horses (14/1 - 33/1) I think have a chance of a place. 

    A fun bet if you're having 3 horses in a race, is to perm your selections (6 bets x stake) in a tri-cast/tri-fecta(getting 1-2-3 in the correct order.....hence the perm) It doesn't come off very often but when it does, as yours did the other day, you get a big payout. 3 horses each @8/1 would pay around 500/1. 
    Good Luck and well done on leading Brrrrrrrr's Naps table

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    Phantom66Phantom66 Member Posts: 5,542
    edited March 2017
    I think I am being found out in the NAPs table.

    However the extra place races are going well.

    I have made 89 bets this year (I have probably bet about 20 times on horses in my life time before that).

    So far I have had 12 winners and 17 places for a ROI of 27%.




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