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Would you ever fold here? Sitting with 2nd Nut Flush against all in
LARSON7
Member Posts: 4,491
Game from2p 4p table, its for a pot worth over £25 if i call.
I have the second nut flush. Oppo sets me in on river;
Up until this point oppo had emassed massive stack, from the hands i seen him winning, he was shoving the nuts or at the very least really strong hands, and in these examples he was only setting some in for a couple of quid.
Would you call or fold this spot?
| Player | Action | Cards | Amount | Pot | Balance |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| jamboGJ | Small blind | £0.02 | £0.02 | £3.94 | |
| Scratville | Big blind | £0.04 | £0.06 | £3.96 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| jembob | Fold | ||||
| doublen | Raise | £0.20 | £0.26 | £23.98 | |
| janice1991 | Fold | ||||
| LARSON7 | Call | £0.20 | £0.46 | £14.23 | |
| jamboGJ | Call | £0.18 | £0.64 | £3.76 | |
| Scratville | Call | £0.16 | £0.80 | £3.80 | |
| Flop | |||||
| |||||
| jamboGJ | Check | ||||
| Scratville | Check | ||||
| doublen | Bet | £0.80 | £1.60 | £23.18 | |
| LARSON7 | Call | £0.80 | £2.40 | £13.43 | |
| jamboGJ | Fold | ||||
| Scratville | Fold | ||||
| Turn | |||||
| |||||
| doublen | Bet | £0.04 | £2.44 | £23.14 | |
| LARSON7 | Call | £0.04 | £2.48 | £13.39 | |
| River | |||||
| |||||
| doublen | Bet | £14.48 | |||
Comments
I think this is actually a fold here if we presume hero's read is correct
When we're playing really deep effective stacks, the importance of position is exaggerated. We can put our opponent into lots of difficult situations, without committing ourselves to the hand. We can use our position to bluff or semi-bluff to sometimes take down pots of 50BB or more, without ever seeing a showdown. We rarely get the opportunity to win such pots when we're 100BB deep because people feel more committed and less able to fold when 25% of their stack is already in the middle.
So if we're deep we should be playing as much in position as possible, therefore we need to be able to play more speculative hands.
It's important to not try to just play a narrow range of premium pre-flop hands because, if our opponent notices we're doing that, he will play more speculative hands with big implied odds such as suited connectors and low pocket pairs - Sacrificing lots of small pots against us to try to win a single, enormous pot. We also lose all of that value that our position can give us, as I said above, by taking down larger pots than we would normally be able to without a showdown.
The reason I agree that maybe the OP should be folding pre-flop is the way he's chosen to play this hand:
If we won't raise and try to win the pot without making the best hand and we can't trust that our second-nuts is good enough to play for stacks when we do make it, then we probably shouldn't be playing the hand at all. To make this pre-flop call profitable in the long-run, at least one of those has to be possible. We can't call on the flop if we think we can only win a small amount more on turn or river if we make our hand, because that small amount of value won't make up for all the times that we miss after calling this full-pot bet. If we don't intend to bluff at any stage, then we have to believe that the few occasions we hit will make up for all the times we miss and fold to our opponent's aggression. If that's not the case, then we shouldn't play non-nut making hands in the first place.
As this hand played, there is a great opportunity to raise the turn as a semi-bluff. We've floated the flop with some equity and now our opponent has shown extreme weakness on the turn. Raise here and we will be given more credit for a made hand than a draw because i) most people raise their big draws on the flop, when their equity is at it's greatest and ii) we've been given wonderful odds to call to see a river with a draw. Call the flop, raise the turn and bet all rivers is a really good plan for this hand: If the river's a heart, we're betting for value and if it's a blank, we're making a bluff that's really tough for our opponent to call without a big hand.
Calling down is a bad plan for the hand if we can't win a big pot when we hit. If we don't think that our opponent stacks off without the nuts, then we can be looking to win lots of smaller (but still potentially hefty) pots from him with a wide bluffing range. If we think he's a bit of a calling station or stacks off light, then we can play our hands purely for value.
I am never folding in this spot pre-against this player.
Against another player yes. The player is raising most hands preflop 2 20p, his range is massive. I was quite lucky i had position on him. Prior to this hand, we were involved in most hands, most of my money on the table had come from this guy, i had sat down at the table with £3.20.
I knew how he was playing, and was able to get the better of it in every other hand that was getting played. I had won a few hands with air, re-raising at the right times.
In this hand, I understand what bear is saying my thinking on this hand after the flop was out was, call the hefty pot sized bet, due to the really strong draw. I did not want to re-raise as when he had a monster, he would constantly re-raise.
I am happy to pay the 80p peel of another card and re-asess. On the turn when he puts in a stupi 4p bet, I'm happy to call this to hit my flush cheapily. Again he could be tricky, if i raise from this 4 p bet, i know i am getting reraised, which yes builds value in the pot should i hit my flush. My logic is if i dont hit my flush, i'm keeping the pot at a decent level so that when i bluff the river i'm committing the minimum (if im called or re-raised)
It was a puzzling bet on the turn, was he doing this to be sneaky and get a re-raise, or was it just an oddball bet?
I was thinking on the turn, if a heart comes out and oppo shoves, I might fold, because to be fair i had a good run and atleast would hold onto profit made from that session.
It's unusual to be at a 2p 4 p table and to be up to £15 odd quid.
It was on my mind when he has shoved previous hands he normally had the goods. However, I was also thinking these "all ins" were only setting a player in for a few quid. So it wasn't a significant amount of his stack/
I was going 2 fold if he shoved the flop, that was my thinkingon the turn.
Then i was thinking why would you shove the flop with the nuts, ur just going to stick in a decent vlue bet.
I snap called.