Good enough for the situation?

robbie1992

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
x	Small blind		1000.00	1000.00	19644.68
x	Big blind		2000.00	3000.00	24775.82
	Your hole cards	A 10
x	Fold
x	Fold
robbie1992	Raise		5000.00	8000.00	61765.36
x	Fold
x	All-in		19644.68	27644.68	0.00
x	Fold
robbie1992	Call		15644.68	43289.36	46120.68
x	Show	10 10
robbie1992	Show	A 10
Flop
		9 8 K
Turn
		5
River
		J
x	Win	Pair of 10s	43289.36		43289.36

This was yesterdays mini £5.50 mini event, i was 4th out of about 40, top 89 was cash so there was no worries about that.  The villian was very loose and was involved in near enough every hand, i think he may even of been tilting after blowing a big stack, when i raise here im near enough certain he will shove, considering the hands he was playing and how active he was i thought i would be well in front of his range,  I went on to finish 30th  and after i looked back and thought this hand maybe wasnt good enough for the situation that i was going to be in, what your thoughts?

Lambert180

You should only be min-raising imo, 5k is too big to be opening at this stage.

I snap call the 10xBB shove unless they've been sat there all night like a complete rock and you KNOW it's only ever gonna be bigger Ax hands and big pairs.

Now youve already put in 25% of his stack, you need a serious read to be able to consider folding

SLOWROLL74

It's hard to say. You have said spoken about a lot of things regarding the villains table image and it sounds like you've got history so that explains your call but you do have to remember that he will have a hand sometimes. I would wait for a slightly better spot though, the only hands your crushing are A9 and below, your A could be dominated and if he has 7-2 his cards are live. Congrats on the deep run though.

EDIT: Didn't notice the chipstacks, the call is probably correct.

robbie1992

Yeah i had seen hands which i think meant he was eager to get his stack in and gamble plus he was fairly short, i think it was for about 30% of my stack so its tough but i do expect to be ahead of his range alot of the time judging on what iv seen previous, but tbh the table was loose and it was hard to see a flop so this hand should of been folded pre i think, just think it comes up short for the all in im expecting to get.

Thanks for the opinions tho.

pryce6

In Response to Re: Good enough for the situation?:

You should only be min-raising imo, 5k is too big to be opening at this stage. I snap call the 10xBB shove unless they've been sat there all night like a complete rock and you KNOW it's only ever gonna be bigger Ax hands and big pairs. Now youve already put in 25% of his stack, you need a serious read to be able to consider folding
Posted by Lambert180

Why? 2 - 2.5x is fine, I'd agree if he was 3/4x but this seems a little petty.

Shows how funny Sky tourneys are if this is a genuine decision, I'd snap but I guess 10bbs is actually a genuine stack on this site so...

Based on your reads though it's a call.

percival09

In Response to Re: Good enough for the situation?:

In Response to Re: Good enough for the situation? : Why? 2 - 2.5x is fine, I'd agree if he was 3/4x but this seems a little petty. Shows how funny Sky tourneys are if this is a genuine decision, I'd snap but I guess 10bbs is actually a genuine stack on this site so... Based on your reads though it's a call.
Posted by pryce6

So much +1 

lambo w/ his pettiness ffs

BorinLoner

I actually agree with Lambert's assertion that 2.5x is too much at this stage. I'm not saying that because I think it makes the blindest bit of difference in this actual hand but because, as this is the poker clinic and it's used by mostly less experienced players, we should have coherent, consistent ideas. Late on in a tournament, min-raising is the cheapest price to steal.

In this hand of course, raise-folding would be a mistake for any reason since stacks are so short. However, if we are playing 20BBeff or more, min-raising is better than 2.5x raising because there may be times when we want to raise-fold. It's something we should be in the habit of doing, I would say.

Enough of me defending Lambert - it makes me feel weird.

I think we should be raising AT in late position with these stacks. When the 3-bet comes back to us we're getting close to the correct pot-odds to call, even against a fairly narrow range. We can't be raise-folding with 10BBeff anyway, so it's definitely a call in that situation. So if we give our opponents a range of 3-betting hands which is wide and therefore contains hands we beat, then it's a really easy call.

pryce6

You make a good argument but...

Min-raise = zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Min+ = funnnnnnnn

Cliffs: make it 4225 to be like your hero pryce6

Lambert180

Imo, it's not THAT standard or at least shouldn't be if we're opening a lot, especially when Sky don't have antes. It might seem petty but his raise is imo 25% bigger than it needs to be which is a pretty big difference. Donating an extra 1k every time we have to raise/fold isn't great, but yeah think OP has got his answer now regarding calling the ship.

DOHHHHHHH

What's the stack of the guy on the button?

If it's around 13xbb or less I'd just open shove.

How wide do you expect villain to shove?

If you're looking to induce the shove then snap call it off then it's better to m/r here even if 2.5x is your standard open. Just change it for spots like this & give him more fold equity. 

His jamming range w/ 10xbb over a 2.5x is narrower than over a 2x. 

Prefer to just shove tho unless button is relatively deep.  

NColley

In Response to Re: Good enough for the situation?:

What's the stack of the guy on the button? If it's around 13xbb or less I'd just open shove. How wide do you expect villain to shove? If you're looking to induce the shove then snap call it off then it's better to m/r here even if 2.5x is your standard open. Just change it for spots like this & give him more fold equity.  His jamming range w/ 10xbb over a 2.5x is narrower than over a 2x.  Prefer to just shove tho unless button is relatively deep.  
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Ya completely agree with this post.

percival09

In Response to Re: Good enough for the situation?:

What's the stack of the guy on the button? If it's around 13xbb or less I'd just open shove. How wide do you expect villain to shove? If you're looking to induce the shove then snap call it off then it's better to m/r here even if 2.5x is your standard open. Just change it for spots like this & give him more fold equity.  His jamming range w/ 10xbb over a 2.5x is narrower than over a 2x.  Prefer to just shove tho unless button is relatively deep.  
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

lol no it's not

you're assuming villain is thinking

NColley

In Response to Re: Good enough for the situation?:

In Response to Re: Good enough for the situation? : lol no it's not you're assuming villain is thinking
Posted by percival09

ah you're right

no thinkers on sky just button clickers

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: Good enough for the situation?:

In Response to Re: Good enough for the situation? : lol no it's not you're assuming villain is thinking
Posted by percival09

how do u know it's not? and that he isnt?

Even if it's unlikely to make him shove wider, it might, and we're calling it off anyway so might as well freeroll it.

Nothing to lose and potentially something to gain.

Why dnt we just 4x then? Or does he start thinking when we 4x? whats the cutoff point?

robbie1992

In Response to Re: Good enough for the situation?:

What's the stack of the guy on the button? If it's around 13xbb or less I'd just open shove. How wide do you expect villain to shove? If you're looking to induce the shove then snap call it off then it's better to m/r here even if 2.5x is your standard open. Just change it for spots like this & give him more fold equity.  His jamming range w/ 10xbb over a 2.5x is narrower than over a 2x.  Prefer to just shove tho unless button is relatively deep.  
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

imo open shoving is abit too reckless, iv got a10o, its good enough to open to induce the shove from the guy i called but if any of the blinds act and get involved then i would get out of the way.  His stack was 27k i think and at that point i had around 80/90k , i was 4th aswell so i wasnt in danger of going out but after this i fell apart lol

At the end of the day the guys shoving range would be huge, he was loose anyways and was very active for his stack, i think long term this is a +EV call so i cant be too results orianted, just wanted to see everyones opinion. thanks .

Lambert180

Doesn't matter how many thousand they have, it's about BBs.

SB = 10xBB
BB = 12xBB

You're the CO, so the only stack we don't know who is left to act after you is the BTN. If he is around the same size as the others, then it's a great spot to just open jam AT.

robbie1992

thats what im saying the sb and bb had good sized stacks so why would i wamma risk my tournament by open shoving, i dont love my hand but its good enough to open and fold to  shove (unless its the guy with the small stack)

Lambert180

They don't have good sized stacks. Well they're not terrible, but they're stacks where they should be looking to get it in and double, they'll be doing this with probably any PP, most Ax hands, hands like KQ, KJ. Maybe wider depending on opponent.