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20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line?

DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
edited April 2013 in The Poker Clinic


Villain is a well known donk ;)

This is a MC table, just about to go on TV. I know he's pretty risk averse and nitty post flop, doesn't like playing big pots w/out a v strong hand, so 175xbb deep I thought I'd rep huge pre and maybe get him off JJ/QQ.
As well as loads of other stuff obv.

He still opens pretty wide from the button too, he's not a pre flop nit.

What's the best line otf?

I think he can still fold 99/TT/JJ maybe QQ here.

Do I check/jam, hence pot committing him with these kinda hands and losing any fold equity I might have?

But then he might check back and I prob end up getting it in bad on a load of blank turns?

I doubt he will bet anything other than overpairs if I check. He'll c/back AK/AQs type hands for example.

Bet small?

Open jam myself and gii/tid when I have tonnes of equity?

Think it's yet another 1 I made a mess of.

Tyia!
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
DOHHHHHHH Small blind  £0.10 £0.10 £40.20
The_Don90 Big blind  £0.20 £0.30 £56.74
 Your hole cards
  • 9
  • 6
   
UP Fold     
bichasila Fold     
IDONKCALLU Raise  £0.60 £0.90 £33.02
DOHHHHHHH Raise  £2.00 £2.90 £38.20
The_Don90 Fold     
IDONKCALLU Raise  £4.60 £7.50 £28.42
DOHHHHHHH Raise  £8.20 £15.70 £30.00
IDONKCALLU Call  £5.10 £20.80 £23.32
Flop
  
  • 6
  • 3
  • 2
   
DOHHHHHHH
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Comments

  • Four2FlushFour2Flush Member Posts: 18
    edited April 2013
    Shove then you can possibly take the pot down here or if he has overpair to the board then your off to the races with stack sizes any flop bet would mean your likely to be pot comitted on this kind of board with your holding so for me i just shove and would be happy to take it down here
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  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG Member Posts: 7,155
    edited April 2013
    I can't see what he would be folding to a shove having just flatted your 5 bet! obv happy to stack off now anyway... I would prob just bet small like 7 or 8 quid and happily call off a jam lol.

    Obv I know what happened, but I was watching the hand live and the above were my thoughts. 
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  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited April 2013
    How can i not remmeber the hand and how didnt i re-make-a-move lol. 

    Umm surley this is like a nut flop JJ, 
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line?:
    How can i not remmeber the hand and how didnt i re-make-a-move lol.  Umm surley this is like a nut flop JJ, 
    Posted by The_Don90
    Do we always open jam when we flop the nuts?
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  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited April 2013
    do we always 5bet 69s leaving a pot size bet back ? 
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line?:
    do we always 5bet 69s leaving a pot size bet back ? 
    Posted by The_Don90
    Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat !!!!

    Ur contribution to the thread so far has been...

    "thats a good flop for our hand"

    C'mon Donald. what now, and why?
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  • liamboi11liamboi11 Member Posts: 2,141
    edited April 2013
    I bet say £7-9 and call it off don`t think he is ever folidin on this flop after the action pre-flop but we have loads of equity and the money already in middle its going in and you are not in bad shape vs 10s+ pretty much flippin.

    only thing I would worry about is if donk had bigger fd wae 2 overs that be a sweat lol but still think that be unlikely but is possible.

    and also you sure do get yourself in sticky spots it`s interesting though lol.
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited April 2013
    check or shove - never folding obviously

    probs just shove
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  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited April 2013
    I just shove.

    I cant see you taking it down on the flop that often tbh V donks range for flatting a 5bet but what ya gonna do now youve flopped the world with 96s
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  • CraigSG1CraigSG1 Member Posts: 1,824
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line?:
    I just shove. I cant see you taking it down on the flop that often tbh V donks range for flatting a 5bet but what ya gonna do now youve flopped the world with 96s
    Posted by Lambert180
    Agree with this. It continues your story not to mention how exceptional the flop was for you and it should be a shove 100% of the time here. You have a slight chance of pushing him off the better hand and to add that to the equity you've picked up as well makes this the only play you have. 
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  • jams88jams88 Member Posts: 694
    edited April 2013
    Would a shove be better as if we are called we have tons of equity whereas if we bet the flop he calls and we brick the turn what do we do shove turn anyway with less pot equity and no fold equity?

    What i am trying to ask is, If we are going to be getting all the money in anyway is it better otf? when we have the best chance of making our hand on later streets and a small chance of getting the villian to fold.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line?:
    Would a shove be better as if we are called we have tons of equity whereas if we bet the flop he calls and we brick the turn what do we do shove turn anyway with less pot equity and no fold equity? What i am trying to ask is, If we are going to be getting all the money in anyway is it better otf? when we have the best chance of making our hand on later streets and a small chance of getting the villian to fold.
    Posted by jams88
    Yeh ofc from my point of view if I'm going to get the rest in and get called it's better to do so on the flop....

    But the problem is what he's gonna do with different types of hands...

    If I open shove and get called I'm going to be behind & flipping. 

    If I c/jam, I can maybe get some folds still depending on his sizing, and/or get it in v a wider range. If he wants to bet AK/AQ and then feels priced in etc. 

    But then I run the risk of him checking back, seeing a blank T/J/Q/K/A ott and being in the same position but w/ less equity. 

    I think he must think I have close to the nuts pre flop, and therefore he will check back so much on the flop, that anything other than a lead is gonna be bad here. 

    He'll probably check back 100% of the hands he's peeled the 5b with, so this forces me to bet....

    It's just deciding on like a £7 lead, or an open shove. 

    If I bet small, I can't see him spazzing out w/AK/AQ, he wont peel either I don't think. He'll just fold. So I don't see any advantage to making it that size. He'll just flat TT and JJ etc.

    If I jam I think there's a small chance he'll fold QQ/JJ and more likely he'll fold his 88/99/TT, and if he doesn't whatever he's never fading the way I run ;)

    So my conclusion is that a jam is probably best v this guy.

    Are there any other considerations? Am I missing anything? Or does anyone disagree with any part of the above?

    fwiw I did jam in game. 

    I did a tommyd "I liked the jam at first, and then I didn't. Then I did, then I didn't."

    Now I do again! :)



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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line?:
    I bet say £7-9 and call it off don`t think he is ever folidin on this flop after the action pre-flop but we have loads of equity and the money already in middle its going in and you are not in bad shape vs 10s+ pretty much flippin. only thing I would worry about is if donk had bigger fd wae 2 overs that be a sweat lol but still think that be unlikely but is possible. and also you sure do get yourself in sticky spots it`s interesting though lol.
    Posted by liamboi11
    ty 4 the post liam. 

    ughhhhhhh even having convinced myself the shove is good again in the above post, re-reading this has changed my mind again! oijcijeiqjceijcipjed

    Think if we're gonna lead it has to be £7 at the most, maybe even £5.50/6

    Spose it all depends how he plays AK/AQ.

    idk :(
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited April 2013

    You 5 bet bluff now just shove and semi bluff - seriously the flop is about as good as it gets when you 5 bet bluff )

    What other hands are in your range when 5 bet pre and oppo flats pre - what are going to do on flop with these other hands other than shove - what are you doing with AK on this flop

    The only reason to check would be for oppo to bluff, does oppo flat 5 bets to float to post ip
    Don't think so unless oppo holds AK lol

    just find the whole hand pretty standard
    You say you rep big pre and what if the flop misses you, you going check give up right

    also wouldn't even think about betting, shove or nothing -
    because oppo range is weighted and they have flat pre then oppo will probbaly flat post

    put's u in a world of pain on the turn and you end up spewing FD + 9 or 6 gets you there - stove it sure your a slight fav anyway
    if oppo turns over AKcc then just loling

    edit: just to follow on do you think oppo ever folds better to a shove




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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line?:
    You 5 bet bluff now just shove and semi bluff - seriously the flop is about as good as it gets when you 5 bet bluff ) What other hands are in your range when 5 bet pre and oppo flats pre - what are going to do on flop with these other hands other than shove - what are you doing with AK on this flop The only reason to check would be for oppo to bluff, does oppo flat 5 bets to float to post ip Don't think so unless oppo holds AK lol just find the whole hand pretty standard You say you rep big pre and what if the flop misses you, you going check give up right also wouldn't even think about betting, shove or nothing - because oppo range is weighted and they have flat pre then oppo will probbaly flat post put's u in a world of pain on the turn and you end up spewing FD + 9 or 6 gets you there - stove it sure your a slight fav anyway if oppo turns over AKcc then just loling edit: just to follow on do you think oppo ever folds better to a shove
    Posted by rancid
    I haven't actually played him that much, but everytime he wins a pot where he stacks sum1 I see it, as he posts brags all over the place. And he always seems to have a nut hand. 

    I dnt think he's gonna consider 88/99/TT/JJ the nuts in a 5b pot 175xbb deep even against me. 

    So I'm not sure but I think he might set mine 77-JJ here. 

    People keep telling me it's standard, they're like "omg u 5b and got the perfect flop just shove"

    But surely there's more to it than that. 

    I wudn't open shove AA/KK here. who would? it's loltarded. 

    But imo the way he plays stuff is way more important here than what I rep. 

    If I bet £5 what does he do w/ AK? 

    idk. and I guess that's why I posted it!

    Balancing the likelihood he will contine w/ AK/AQ v a small lead against the likelihood he will fold overpairs to a jam. 

    MAYBE BOTH OPTIONS ARE FINE! :/


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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line?:
    In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line? : I haven't actually played him that much, but everytime he wins a pot where he stacks sum1 I see it, as he posts brags all over the place. And he always seems to have a nut hand.  I dnt think he's gonna consider 88/99/TT/JJ the nuts in a 5b pot 175xbb deep even against me.  So I'm not sure but I think he might set mine 77-JJ here.  People keep telling me it's standard, they're like "omg u 5b and got the perfect flop just shove" But surely there's more to it than that.  I wudn't open shove AA/KK here. who would? it's loltarded.  But imo the way he plays stuff is way more important here than what I rep.  If I bet £5 what does he do w/ AK?  idk. and I guess that's why I posted it! Balancing the likelihood he will contine w/ AK/AQ v a small lead against the likelihood he will fold overpairs to a jam.  MAYBE BOTH OPTIONS ARE FINE! :/
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    Don't know why you disregard the shove with top of range, level them to death with the shove :D
    oppo has PSB, why would you not bet pot
    Thing is is oppo really flatting pre to fold flop, surely they continue with top of range
    By flatting the n5 bet oppo want's you to spew pot size on flop surely with your bluffs so why not do this with top of range

    You can't bet £5 when oppo flats top of range you hate life at turn, you are flipping with a 5 bet bluff - plus given the fact that you may have a little FE - pretty std )

    But anyway, IDK either but it's very slim that oppo going to be bluffing flops in a 5 bet pot because IDCU likes money surely

    All down to what you think they flat 5 bet with, which is pretty lol to be doing anyway

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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line?:
    In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line? : Don't know why you disregard the shove with top of range, level them to death with the shove :D oppo has PSB, why would you not bet pot Thing is is oppo really flatting pre to fold flop, surely they continue with top of range By flatting the n5 bet oppo want's you to spew pot size on flop surely with your bluffs so why not do this with top of range You can't bet £5 when oppo flats top of range you hate life at turn, you are flipping with a 5 bet bluff - plus given the fact that you may have a little FE - pretty std ) But anyway, IDK either but it's very slim that oppo going to be bluffing flops in a 5 bet pot because IDCU likes money surely All down to what you think they flat 5 bet with, which is pretty lol to be doing anyway
    Posted by rancid
    Cuz I have 3 streets to get a psb in! 

    He might fold 77 to a shove, but if I bet £5 otf, hes not folding "omg Ive got sick odds I'll call and see if he slows down"

    Same on turn

    Then otr, "omg I've got 214/1 on a call he could have AK" 

    etc.

    v good/thinking regs I'll use the same sizing w/ a balanced range. ie. air. that rarely works out tho. 

    guna request the hand 

    642715531

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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited April 2013
    In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line?:
    In Response to Re: 20nl deep, flop well in 5b pot w/ trash, psb left, flop line? : Cuz I have 3 streets to get a psb in!  He might fold 77 to a shove, but if I bet £5 otf, hes not folding "omg Ive got sick odds I'll call and see if he slows down" Same on turn Then otr, "omg I've got 214/1 on a call he could have AK"  etc. v good/thinking regs I'll use the same sizing w/ a balanced range. ie. air. that rarely works out tho.  guna request the hand  642715531
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    I hear ya but this ain't a 3 bet pot ) What good thinking regs flat 5 bet at this level and with what hands
    Find it absurd that you would think oppo will flat a depolarised range anyway
    Oppo should not be flatting anything but prems
    Because oppo flats 5 bet pre, oppo will continue the same and flat you on the flop and put you in a horrible spot on the turn
    Why is oppo flatting the 5 bet verus you, it can only be prem hand
    To do it with anything else is just very bad
    Is oppo very bad )

    Oppo may flat a range that you either shove and fold better or oppo may fold worse AK/AQ that still holds equity on the flop

    Really wouldnt' worry about folding out AK/AQ

    really bugging me but you wouldn't flat pre and then shove over the top on the flop would you - that would be slightly icky
    Let's face it, it's only a small part of range that oppo is going to bluff on flop
    Also you want oppo to fold, so a shove is going to work as like you say a small bet is going to be called

    fair to say when someone flats your 5 bet this deep, I wouldnt' worry so much about balance and optimum - but more what is correct given the silly spot you find yourself in
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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited April 2013
    [ ]  good 5bet.



    [ x ] good flop.


    [  ] good luck hitting your club or two pair+
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  • sighcallsighcall Member Posts: 497
    edited April 2013
    fold to 4 -bet/shove flop
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