Pocket queens after a raise and reraise

LARSON7

In this hand here, opponent has just sat down at the table, I have no reads at all.

I'm in the bb with pocket queens. It is raised 4 times BB then Button reraises 4 times the initial raise to64p total. Given this massive bet it looks like Aces, Kings Maybe Ace King, though i doubt it. Possibly this could be getting done with Jacks Tens or Queens, don't really think opponent is making a move.

I thought i would call to see a flop, flop comes down Ace high opponent over bets the pot on the flop. I'm quite happy with my fold there is very little i am beating here. Do you think it's a bad call preflop? The reason i didn't ship preflop was I don't know the opponent, and so easily at this level abig bet like this signifies aces or kings.

Edit; I don't know if i can fold preflop here, maybe there is an argument for it. I've just checked out opponent on sharkscope, he looks like a decent enough player. If the flop doesn't come down Ace or King high, i'm probably still not loving my hand. The only thing i am beating here is a bluff. I dont see him betting that big with pocket Aces, surely he would check it to me if he had this strong a hand? If he had Kings the Ace would surely have slowed the action down? The only real hand that makes any sense is AK??

bokata	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£7.91
LARSON7	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£4.89
	Your hole cards	Q Q
THDARKLORD	Fold
nance03	Raise		£0.16	£0.22	£7.91
pokermask	Raise		£0.64	£0.86	£3.37
bokata	Fold
LARSON7	Call		£0.60	£1.46	£4.29
nance03	Fold
Flop
		A 4 7
LARSON7	Check
pokermask	Bet		£1.68	£3.14	£1.69
LARSON7	Fold
pokermask	Muck
pokermask	Win		£1.35		£3.04
pokermask	Return		£1.68

Lambert180

If I'm readless at 4NL with QQ, then I will 100% be trying to get it in pre. Once he 3bets, I'd go to like £2.10

The_Don90

im the opposite of Lambert. Readless i think its a fold. so few NL4 players 3b 

LARSON7

Normally it means Aces or Kings! It's just a strange line if he doesn't have AK. I prob should have just folded preflop, it's a dicfficult one.

percival09

4b & gii

craigcu12

with hands like this larson if you have no read i would go with lambert and just get it in preflop because  if the flop came Q high your loosing the chance to steal full stack from hands such as AK and jj.
if he is a decent play he probably has a wider hand range OTB because he probably knows how wide a hand range their is with most nl4p.
i myself reraise things such as JJ and AQ if the orig raise was just 12p

jugglegeek

4bet to get it in pre, Man the ___ up, and embrace the variance. You need reads to do anything different. You say that the player just sat down so you have no reads. At NL4 always look to get it in pre-flop with QQ+ and AK as a rule. If you have reads that the player is super nitty then make that KK+ and if you have reads that they are an agro-loon extend to TT+/AQ+.

You have called because you think nobody ever 3bets without AA/KK, but where are you now? You are out of possition with what should be a monster hand and you have no idea where you are. The villian could have A-rag and would have folded to a 4bet, they could have JJ and you have just folded the best hand.

LARSON7

Yeah maybe craig, but it is just such a massive reraise that kind of got me think i was beat here lol

I'm quite happy with how i'm playing at cash at the moment, and i'm winning, maximising on value and limiting losses, folding at the right times. It just didn't feel right here, i wasn't at all confident with my Queens (in this positon/ situation).

But yeah, maybe i should have just 4 bet it, i normally give someone credit the first time.

LARSON7

In Response to Re: Pocket queens after a raise and reraise:

4bet to get it in pre, Man the ___ up, and embrace the variance. You need reads to do anything different. You say that the player just sat down so you have no reads. At NL4 always look to get it in pre-flop with QQ+ and AK as a rule. If you have reads that the player is super nitty then make that KK+ and if you have reads that they are an agro-loon extend to TT+/AQ+. You have called because you think nobody ever 3bets without AA/KK, but where are you now? You are out of possition with what should be a monster hand and you have no idea where you are. The villian could have A-rag and would have folded to a 4bet, they could have JJ and you have just folded the best hand.
Posted by jugglegeek

haha brilliant mate.

Yeah im outa position, that's why i said i should of maybe folded pre.

A bet like this, at this level, normally means aces or kings

jugglegeek

In Response to Re: Pocket queens after a raise and reraise:

In Response to Re: Pocket queens after a raise and reraise : haha brilliant mate. Yeah im outa position, that's why i said i should of maybe folded pre. A bet like this, at this level , normally means aces or kings
Posted by LARSON7

I'd love to know if this is true and could be backed up with long term stats. It's easy for confimation bias to sneak in. It's like those people who say everytime I get kings an ace flops, in reality it happens about a quarter of the time but you don't remember those times it is nine-high and the villian folds to cbet. Just the times you get owned by A3o.

I still say get it in until you have reads.

grantorino

I doubt many 4NL players 3b bluff with Ax.

LARSON7

In Response to Re: Pocket queens after a raise and reraise:

In Response to Re: Pocket queens after a raise and reraise : I'd love to know if this is true and could be backed up with long term stats. It's easy for confimation bias to sneak in. It's like those people who say everytime I get kings an ace flops, in reality it happens about a quarter of the time but you don't remember those times it is nine-high and the villian folds to cbet. Just the times you get owned by A3o. I still say get it in until you have reads.
Posted by jugglegeek

Fair enough mate.

I say this from personal experience. I don't know what level you play at, but generally speaking people at this level are quite honest. It's really unusual for someone to 3 bet light, I can't even remember the last time i seen a 3 bet with AJ/ AQ.

Curt360x27

Thinking that folding QQ to an open and a button 3bet readless at 4nl is acceptable, sigh.

LARSON7

In Response to Re: Pocket queens after a raise and reraise:

if ya rolled for 4nl which ya are its a easy shove if its ya only £4 to ya name and ya skint if ya lose this hand fold
Posted by IDONKCALLU

Fair enough lol

jugglegeek

In Response to Re: Pocket queens after a raise and reraise:

Thinking that folding QQ to an open and a button 3bet readless at 4nl is acceptable, sigh.
Posted by Curt360x27

If this is the case then you should be 3betting the ___ out of all the regs who think like this. If there are players who fold QQ to a 3bet then 3bet them with everything even vaguely decent

grantorino

In Response to Re: Pocket queens after a raise and reraise:

In Response to Re: Pocket queens after a raise and reraise : If this is the case then you should be 3betting the ___ out of all the regs who think like this. If there are players who fold QQ to a 3bet then 3bet them with everything even vaguely decent
Posted by jugglegeek

 

Why would you need decent cards

The problems are that regs adjust, prob not well at 4nl though.  Also you will get cold called a lot behind at 4nl so you might want to think before inflating pot with marginal holdings

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Pocket queens after a raise and reraise:

In Response to Re: Pocket queens after a raise and reraise :   Why would you need decent cards
The problems are that regs adjust, prob not well at 4nl though.  Also you will get cold called a lot behind at 4nl so you might want to think before inflating pot with marginal holdings
Posted by grantorino

Answering your own questions, grantorino?

grantorino

In Response to Re: Pocket queens after a raise and reraise:

In Response to Re: Pocket queens after a raise and reraise : Answering your own questions, grantorino?
Posted by BorinLoner

 Lol knew I'd get pulled up on that. Jugglegeek will speak for himself but sounded to me like he was talking about 3b bluffing and looking for folds. I'm not sure how he defines decent hands in this spot but I would prefer play most of my poker postflop at 4nl rather than with small sprs and mediocre holdings

LARSON7

I'm tellin ya, it's always aces haha

An hours session tonight the only 2 big pots i lost were all in preflop vrs ACES lol

TheWicked1	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£1.32
tishtosh33	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£3.18
	Your hole cards	J J
TOD19	Fold
Pavillion	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£1.49
LARSON7	Raise		£0.12	£0.22	£2.81
jobo	Fold
TheWicked1	Raise		£0.24	£0.46	£1.08
tishtosh33	Fold
Pavillion	Fold
LARSON7	All-in		£2.81	£3.27	£0.00
TheWicked1	All-in		£1.08	£4.35	£0.00
LARSON7	Unmatched bet		£1.59	£2.76	£1.59
TheWicked1	Show	A A
LARSON7	Show	J J
Flop
		4 10 2
Turn
		10
River
		5
TheWicked1	Win	Two Pairs, Aces and 10s

lockett12	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£3.95
TheHeath	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£2.76
	Your hole cards	Q Q
matsam	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£2.84
TaxiMan491	Fold
TINTIN	Fold
LARSON7	Raise		£0.20	£0.30	£3.40
lockett12	Call		£0.18	£0.48	£3.77
TheHeath	Call		£0.16	£0.64	£2.60
matsam	Raise		£0.80	£1.44	£2.04
LARSON7	All-in		£3.40	£4.84	£0.00
lockett12	Fold
TheHeath	Fold
matsam	All-in		£2.04	£6.88	£0.00
LARSON7	Unmatched bet		£0.72	£6.16	£0.72
matsam	Show	A A
LARSON7	Show	Q Q
Flop
		8 5 9
Turn
		10
River
		3
matsam	Win	Pair of Aces

LARSON7

Sneaky sneaky! limpin with aces haha

BorinLoner

The limp-3-bet is always going to have your QQ in bad shape, lol. It's such a classic move with AA.

You definitely can't call the 3-bet with the stacks and it's probably not too bad to get it in if you think the guy is a bit spewy. If he's been quiet or very passive then you can perhaps find the fold. I doubt you'll pay him off again, at least.