AJ UTG in a MTT facing a 3 bet, 15k stack blinds 500/1000

LARSON7

I was playing in a MTT, blinds were 500-1000, I'm sitting with  15k.

UTG i have AJ, raise to 2200, I'm 3 bet to 6k and shove. I was snap called with AK.

It was a 9 handed table, with 17 players remaining.

SHould i just be folding AJ UTG in this spot? Or was it ok just over min raising here, and shoving to the 3bet?

grantorino

Depends on table dynamic

In general prob just openfold utg 9 handed. As played I fold to the 3bet without any reads /history , even though you are pretty shallow to raise/fold any hand

BorinLoner

It depends largely on how the table is playing. I'm assuming this was a live game.

AJ is probably the bottom of your range for raising 9-handed, UTG with 15BB. When our oppo 3-bets, what does that mean for his range? If he's competent, he probably has you crushed.

Whether you should be min-raising AJ UTG out of a 15BB stack, intending to fold is probably a matter which will be debated. Once again, it depends on your thoughts on your opponents and whatnot. There may be times to just open-shove, though I'm not sure that's necessarily good 9-handed. There may be times when it's just best to fold.

Enlightening post this one. My answer: It depends.  

LARSON7

Cheers mate, my previous table had just broke, it was the first hand i had played at the table, no reads and knew nothing on the opponent.

LARSON7

lol maybe it's a fold preflop, i cant really raise to fold i don't think. Not with 15 bigs anyway.

Looking back, i'm just knew to the table, i should have just folded and got a feel for the table, i was still sitting with average stack with a few short stacks, there could of been better spots. But as played, i feel i had to shove, after the 3 bet.

The_Don90

The important question is, are ante's n play. 

If antes are not in play its probably a fold UTG with 15BB. 

If antes are in play i lean towards a shove. 

If we open i probably fold to a re-raise. 

chicknMelt

agree with don90

MattBates

What is the average stack size? Are we itm? What is the 3 bettor playing?

LARSON7

Top 4 are paid, there is no anti's- aggressor is prob chip leader with a bout 40k, Average is 15k,

I think it was a mistake playing the hand in the first place. In saying that once i've opened i wouldnt exactly like folding either, i've raised 2bb, and am folding leaving myself 12/13 bb.

LARSON7

Meant to say as well blinds were 5/1k, it was soon going up to 1/2, then 15 mins later it would be 2/4.

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: AJ UTG in a MTT facing a 3 bet, 15k stack blinds 500/1000:

Top 4 are paid, there is no anti's- aggressor is prob chip leader with a bout 40k, Average is 15k, I think it was a mistake playing the hand in the first place. In saying that once i've opened i wouldnt exactly like folding either, i've raised 2bb, and am folding leaving myself 12/13 bb.
Posted by LARSON7

It depends entirely on what you think of your equity when faced with the 3-bet and how your pot odds relate to that.

Assuming we're not going to flat and we never have any fold equity in this situation, I think we'd be looking at 13k to win a pot of roughly 30k. (Is that right?)

Those are pot odds of about 43%. That means we need to have the best hand alot of the time to offset all the times we're a 30% dog and the odd occasion when we're about 5% against AA... how often are we being 3-bet by AT or worse?

Don't make the mistake of calling off your stack with worse odds than you need, just because you don't like the idea of folding. If you don't think you have the correct odds and if you'd be left with a playable stack, then make the fold.

GELDY

your range should include some hands you can fold.

utg AJ should be one of them.

NColley

at 15bb we shouldn't really have a raise/fold range

GELDY

no antes

15bb 9handed table

raising utg

do we really have to be committed to every hand we play?

The_Don90

In Response to Re: AJ UTG in a MTT facing a 3 bet, 15k stack blinds 500/1000:

no antes 15bb 9handed table raising utg do we really have to be committed to every hand we play?
Posted by GELDY

I just dislike raise folding at 15BB deep. Really no need expessially when theres no antes in play, 

Look after ur chips from EP and be aggro as sin from late. 

Just my 2 pennies. - if its 6 max id be more likely to open fwiw. 

BorinLoner

Having a rule that says "I can't raise-fold with 15BB" would be silly. You've got to have justifications for that.

For example, if you're certain that you can raise and everyone at the table will fold unless they have AA, KK, QQ or AK, then you're probably safe in raise-folding every single hand. Obviously the more players to act behind you, the more likely it is that you'll run into one of those hands but even UTG 9-handed, raise-folding should be profitable in that situation.

I think it's safe to say that some of our opponents at a 9-handed table will have wider 3-betting ranges than that. That's something we of course have to judge and will impact on whether raise-folding, raise-GII or just open-folding is best. If we raise and are 3-bet, whether we get it in depends on the range we give our opponent and how our hand plays against that, not on some sense that "We can't raise-fold with 15BB".

The_Don90

In Response to Re: AJ UTG in a MTT facing a 3 bet, 15k stack blinds 500/1000:

Having a rule that says "I can't raise-fold with 15BB" would be silly. You've got to have justifications for that. For example, if you're certain that you can raise and everyone at the table will fold unless they have AA, KK, QQ or AK, then you're probably safe in raise-folding every single hand. Obviously the more players to act behind you, the more likely it is that you'll run into one of those hands but even UTG 9-handed, raise-folding should be profitable in that situation. I think it's safe to say that some of our opponents at a 9-handed table will have wider 3-betting ranges than that. That's something we of course have to judge and will impact on whether raise-folding, raise-GII or just open-folding is best. If we raise and are 3-bet, whether we get it in depends on the range we give our opponent and how our hand plays against that, not on some sense that "We can't raise-fold with 15BB".
Posted by BorinLoner

Im not saying its a rule i have, i will do it. I just dislike doing it. So if im opening i probably intend on stacking. Obviously dependant on dynamics. If we have someone whos being aggro i raise call off. If table is super passive i raise fold etc etc. 

Argh meh i hate full ring. 

I feel my point on this thread has gone slightly wrong as is clear by your responce here. 

I know what im trying to say, i just suck at saying it. Im hopig with this responce it makes some more sense. 

GREGHOGG

In Response to Re: AJ UTG in a MTT facing a 3 bet, 15k stack blinds 500/1000:

at 15bb we shouldn't really have a raise/fold range
Posted by NColley

this

if you are playing the hand from this position with 15bb, u are going with it.. hence, in this spot I defo favour a fold pre. 

@ BL- you can mr/f from 15bb (and sometimes less) from late position, as a complete steal with junk, but to r/f with a potential vallue hand from ep is just redic imo. It is very rare you are going to get such a weak passive table where it is possible to mr/f from any position all the time from a 15bb stack! But i see what you are saying... obv with a much bigger stack we can do what we like from any position! I just think 15bb gives us huge limitiations as every bb is important at that stage of an mtt where it sounds like that might be about the average chipstack!

BorinLoner

The suggestion of knowing that the entire table is only 3-betting super-tight is an extreme example of when we should be raise-folding against the entire table. Raise-calling would be mental if we know that our equity is guaranteed to be below 30% and our pot odds are around 43%. That's just bad, so raise-calling would be bad against every player at the table in this scenario.

If we talk about 8 opponents, Players A-H, and players B, D and F are only 3-betting us with that super-narrow range, then raise-calling against these guys would be terrible. We can't say "I only had 15BB and I've bet 2 of them so I MUST call even though I know this guy always has me crushed".

We raise-call against the other individuals based on our perceptions of their ranges. So we raise and say "I'll call it off against everyone but players B, D and F".

Not having a raise-fold range with 15BB is crazy if we know that some of our opponents' 3-betting ranges have us crushed while the open-raise still has value. It's a bad "rule". You've got to adjust to your opponent.

rancid

If there are stacks on the the table that will shove worse but also stacks that will shove with better than AJ then you can raise/fold




stacks define range combined with tendacies
your not folding to a 7bb stack are you

plus, very likely you have the best hand to:
1. take the blinds
2. worse calls that you dominate or fit fold flop


why do we raise ?


folding is just negative expectation

given the correct circumstances, it's a r/f or o/f


depends )

Unknown

Im pretty keen on mr/f, or mr/c vs smallish stacks. If there is more than one <15bb stacks behind you to act, there could be some arguement for limping to get them to shove wider to your perceived weakness (Im assuming the table isnt of a great standard).

Im not keen at all of open shoving, and think r/calling ai vs a 3bet is always going to have you in trouble