50nl oop in 3b pot v fos line? Prob air v air, any options left to win this hand?

DOHHHHHHH

Yo! weird hand time again.

3b pre I think is fine, doing it for the right reasons, fella is decent, opens quite alot from late position, and tends to fold or 4b most of the time.

Villain is quite loose aggressive, not played with him tonnes, I know he has good MTT results on here, not sure about his cash game though. Think he 3bets quite a predictable range btn v cutoff, so expect his range when he flats the open to be loads of connected stuff, small to medium pairs, some smaller suited aces and broadways like TJs TQs.

Think when I 3b and opener folds he's going to continue with like 5s thru Ts maybe, KQs, KJs. Definitely don't expect him to under-rep AK/AQ or over-value hands like A7/A8/A9/ATs.

Think the flop is good for me, but obviously if I'm firing 1, I need to fire 2 and probably 3 for stacks, as alot of his range is pairs which will float at least 1 on this board probably.

Size my flop and turn bets to leave a chunky river shove.

Then I'm faced with a strange (?) turn click.

I can't see him repping anything valuey, I don't think he has many Ax, and even if he does I don't expect him to raise them in position when it looks like I'm setting up a river shove anyway.

But the problem is I'm oop......

Are my hands tied?

If I shove the turn now, I don't rep anything either? I would probably just flat JJ/QQ/KK/AK/AQ/AJ here then c/c river right?

So even though I think he's bluffing ALOT here, is there just nothing I can do about it?

Options...

Jam now?
Call now, Open jam river, thus taking away his river bluff option?
Call now, c/c river and get shown 55 or KJs or something totally tilting?
Just give up?

Fwiw the HH isn't great for showing psr on here.

When he clicks the turn, the pot is £50 total, and I have 30 left. So if I shove it's £20 more for him to call.

Does that just make it a fold, he'll be getting 4/1 (£20 to win 80)?

ughhhh.

Prob answered my own question now, but wrote too much to delete without posting!

tia.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
kevmunro58	Small blind		£0.25	£0.25	£58.85
DOHHHHHHH	Big blind		£0.50	£0.75	£50.66
	Your hole cards	4 K
Rickyyyy	Fold
SJspanky1	Fold
OPENER	Raise		£1.50	£2.25	£46.93
xxx	Call		£1.50	£3.75	£84.44
kevmunro58	Fold
DOHHHHHHH	Raise		£5.00	£8.75	£45.66
OPENER	Fold
xxx	Call		£4.00	£12.75	£80.44
Flop
		A 9 A
DOHHHHHHH	Bet		£5.50	£18.25	£40.16
xxx	Call		£5.50	£23.75	£74.94
Turn
		7
DOHHHHHHH	Bet		£9.50	£33.25	£30.66
xxx	Raise		£19.00	£52.25	£55.94
DOHHHHHHH

GELDY

DOHHHHHHHH,

as much as i am very impressed with your creative play, being oop against decent players on this kind of board is not where you want to be - save the money for better spots - imho

grantorino

Questions

So you 3b pre in this spot regardless of cards? If so are you 3b a massive amount from the blinds?

Why do you think he calls KJ but not AT etc? 

His line is weird, definitely don't call turn and c/c river imo, too many bluffs beat you. Really depends how he views you, if you are continuing jam turn imo

10NGY

9s would play this identically? And maybe 7s. Any middle pair might even call you if they've seen you make moves before?

RobIles

You can pick better hands to 3bet than 83 off you know. When you learnt to 3b loose openers do you now just apply this every single time you play without thinking what your actually trying to achieve. This is not a profitable play ever your out of pos to 2 players who will call, this is sky - is the button in particular ever folding? Do it less often no need to go mad every time you turn your laptop on. Folf pre. 3bet bigger pre if you elect to play. Your probably posting this to create some sort of image anyway

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: 50nl oop in 3b pot v fos line? Prob air v air, any options left to win this hand?:

Questions So you 3b pre in this spot regardless of cards? If so are you 3b a massive amount from the blinds? Why do you think he calls KJ but not AT etc?  His line is weird, definitely don't call turn and c/c river imo, too many bluffs beat you. Really depends how he views you, if you are continuing jam turn imo
Posted by grantorino

Nah I wont 3b this spot every single time, It depends on gameflow and how active I've been etc. The key to deciding to 3b this time was the guy who opened, it looked set up perfectly to squeeze. Kx felt good enough at the time.

Don't 3b that much from the blinds, idk it all depends. Not afraid to mix it up though.

I think stuff like JQs and kJs will look more attractive to villain facing 3b than like AT and AJ. I'm guna have alot of AKs and AQs, maybe the suited broadway hands flop better than AT/AJ?

Dunno, just think people prefer to see flops w/ suited broadways than middleing aces.


In Response to Re: 50nl oop in 3b pot v fos line? Prob air v air, any options left to win this hand?:

You can pick better hands to 3bet than 83 off you know. When you learnt to 3b loose openers do you now just apply this every single time you play without thinking what your actually trying to achieve. This is not a profitable play ever your out of pos to 2 players who will call, this is sky - is the button in particular ever folding? Do it less often no need to go mad every time you turn your laptop on. Folf pre. 3bet bigger pre if you elect to play. Your probably posting this to create some sort of image anyway
Posted by RobIles

Not particuarly interested about the pre flop play, ofc appreciate any added feedback people might offer but I'm happy with my 3b. I'm confident that in general I can pick decent spots to 3b bluff now, and I understand the theory behind it.

Agree it could maybe be 1xbb bigger or something, but w/e.

Any thoughts on the tough part of the hand? The bit I asked for help with?

rancid

jam turn or fold -

difficult to know if oppo would play AQ/AJ this way but it deffo in flatting range
So is 77/99 and all inbetween that you want folds from

your bluff catcher is very weak

if you flat turn, pretty sure oppo gives up all air/weak hand range - middle strengh will still call river

more of a chance of folding out middling range on turn if they ever fold it
just not folding river with what you have behind

oppo gotta be bluff raising turn 26.5% of the time to make shove profitbale - something like that )

IDK crazy guy )


nh gg sir

RobIles

I can see why you think he has fold equity on turn. His range is polarized - all low suited As prob flat turn so its pretty weird his range is pretty much house AQ/AJ or air... what air hands does he float the flop and then bluff turn with though? KQ, 3s-8s? is he a good reg? ever seen him spas before? 

Shove turn, take note

Fold turn, until you know his tendancies.

Calling never. only beating suited connectors gone mad which prob dont float flop

Shoving or folding is fine I think, leaning towards fold though. 

This being said I highlight my original statement that you can pick so many better spots with hands to 3b bluff/squeeze and the size bigger going to be 3 way to flop to often.

BorinLoner

What do you mean that Kx felt good enough to 3-bet? If you're only hoping to take it down pre-flop, then your hand is irrelevant and if you're expecting to be called alot, how well does K4 realistically play against your opponents' calling ranges?

I also agree that it's a little strange to think opponents continue with KJ but fold AT. Players who fold AT because they're afraid they might be dominated also fold KJ, QJ, etc for the same reason. I don't think it's a good spot to squeeze if you don't really understand your opponent's calling range on the button. Are you sure you do?


Anyway, post-flop...

On the flop, you're now reppin AK/AA, given the 3-bet range you want your opponent to believe you have. If your opponent has a vague knowledge of you, he knows you have a much wider range and would c-bet close to 100% of it here. So the call could be a float, I think that's fair to say. If he doesn't know you, he always has a hand..

So does he know you?

If he does know you, betting the turn might not be terrible. However, he knows that you still don't necessarily have anything. The raise could therefore be air. It's just as likely to be an Ace or better in the hands of someone who plays their hand face up, though.

If he doesn't know you, betting the turn is probably terrible. You're repping a super-narrow range on the flop and he still called. When he raises turn, it's highly likely that it's just value. Most players don't know that they can just let you keep betting, DOHHHHHHH. Alot of players also don't have great understanding of what is and what is not a monster or of how to conceal them. If he has A2 here, he might think he's sat on the effective nuts.

I don't think you should overestimate the skills of opponents until you know they're good. This raise could indeed be a very good bluff, leveraging his entire stack against you with air, without actually risking his entire stack. Even though he doesn't really rep much, it's tough for you to do owt without the Ace... but unless you know your opponent is that clever, I don't think this is a good spot to re-bluff.

Even if you know you're opponent IS that clever, I don't think this is a good spot to re-bluff. Clever guys are allowed to have a hand sometimes too. Even some of his bluffing hands have you beat so calling is not a good option.

Let's be honest, being decent at Sky MTT's doesn't on its own make someone a particularly good player. Don't make assumptions based on that.

grantorino

When you 3b bluff pre your cards do matter even though we are looking for folds. Bluffing with more equity> bluffing with less equity as we get called x amount of time (also we prob don't want to have a 0% folding range).  K4o doesn't strike me as a great choice of hand to do it with

Are villains capable enough to recognise this looks like a good squeeze spot for you

Without good reads I don't think he is bluffing here enough, you should have plenty of Ax hands in your range and I doubt he is trying to make you fold trips in a 3b pot

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: 50nl oop in 3b pot v fos line? Prob air v air, any options left to win this hand?:

When you 3b bluff pre your cards do matter even though we are looking for folds. Bluffing with more equity /> bluffing with less equity as we get called x amount of time (also we prob don't want to have a 0% folding range).  K4o doesn't strike me as a great choice of hand to do it with Are villains capable enough to recognise this looks like a good squeeze spot for you Without good reads I don't think he is bluffing here enough, you should have plenty of Ax hands in your range and I doubt he is trying to make you fold trips in a 3b pot
Posted by grantorino

Yeh think both recognise it's a decent squeeze spot, I haven't yet seen the opener adjust to do anything about it though, as I stated in OP he normally 4bets for value or folds, obv most of his opening range just folds here, as he's still opening a reasonable c/o range. 

Vil will know me a bit better, just through general reputation on the site tho of being loose/spewy, we haven't actually played many hands v eachother. 

Really doubt he's raising the turn for value. But the problem is, even thought I know that he's repping nothing, he will prob know that if I shove, I'm repping nothing either....

If he's turning 55 in to a bluff for example, and I shove, he'd prob know that I can't have an ace. But if I flat he'd prob know I either have an ace or a better PP or something. In which case I'd c/c 100% of rivers if I flat turn. 

I think my hands r tied even though I know he's bluffing so often!!!!

rancid

In Response to Re: 50nl oop in 3b pot v fos line? Prob air v air, any options left to win this hand?:

In Response to Re: 50nl oop in 3b pot v fos line? Prob air v air, any options left to win this hand? : Yeh think both recognise it's a decent squeeze spot, I haven't yet seen the opener adjust to do anything about it though, as I stated in OP he normally 4bets for value or folds, obv most of his opening range just folds here, as he's still opening a reasonable c/o range.  Vil will know me a bit better, just through general reputation on the site tho of being loose/spewy, we haven't actually played many hands v eachother.  Really doubt he's raising the turn for value. But the problem is, even thought I know that he's repping nothing, he will prob know that if I shove, I'm repping nothing either.... If he's turning 55 in to a bluff for example, and I shove, he'd prob know that I can't have an ace. But if I flat he'd prob know I either have an ace or a better PP or something. In which case I'd c/c 100% of rivers if I flat turn.  I think my hands r tied even though I know he's bluffing so often!!!!
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

if oppo wants you to fold then shove )

You really think he wants you to shove your bluffs and call with a pr

offshoot

i dont think hes bluffing at all. Im sure hes just trying to get you to put all your money in with a weaker ace.

TommyD

Stop trying to get people off of Trips at 50nl JJ

Dude's sigh calling for that price with AT.  You have so many aces in your range here I just don't see him floating to bluff you on the turn with a clickback, especially on a barren flop where you have plenty of aces.  Had the click back come on the flop I'm all for going with a read of 'they are bluffing' and going for flat to either c/r the turn or river.  This just says to me 'go on JJ, spew spew spew.'  Anyways, we really have so little FE at those odds if he does have something.

Pre, meh, there are much better holdings to have in the light part of our 3bet range but don't I don't hate it.  King blocker and all that.

BigHawk89

You don't have to win every pot.

It's pretty unlikely the villain is bluffing here if he is you've just gotta say wp!!