Final table of dtd, 3/6, think this call for my tournament life was an error because it was against

omm

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
POKERTREV	Small blind		8000.00	8000.00	82622.88
Rumen1gge	Big blind		16000.00	24000.00	144780.04
	Your hole cards	A K
b_oakdave	All-in		227693.60	251693.60	0.00
FlyingDagg	Fold
omm	All-in		195943.69	447637.29	0.00
-TARAS-	Fold
POKERTREV	Fold
Rumen1gge	Fold
b_oakdave	Unmatched bet		31749.91	415887.38	31749.91
b_oakdave	Show	8 8
omm	Show	A K
Flop
		A 9 8
Turn
		A
River
		2
b_oakdave	Win	Full House, 8s and Aces	415887.38		447637.29

larry1959

Looking at the way the hand played out, this hand was a cooler and all your chips would have gone in anyway. A raise pre would have been called by yourself, as would any bet on the flop, which ever way you played this hand, the villian wasn't letting go after hitting a set on the flop.
What made the hand worse was you hitting a set on the turn, which probably would have enticed you to shove anyway. As for calling an all in P/F at this stage, most players would have called with this reasonably good starting hand, and playing the same hand over a period of time (with 2 suited over cards) would be winning as you have the % majority of outs... 11 hearts,3 A's 3K's plus the 4Q's J's and 10's for the straights, compared to one of the 2x8's the villian needed and the board needing to pair.
On the other side of the coin, the villian seems to be an aggressive player as shoving all in with pocket 8's suggests and was probably just after the blinds and didn't expect a call at this stage. Having said that, you haven't mentioned his style of play...had he been this aggressive in previous hands?? had he played a lot of hands?...how he was betting in  hands that he played?
This time,unfortunately, was a cooler that you were'nt getting off which ever way the hand played and got unlucky.....variance I believe the is the word used.. ;-)

Lambert180

Snap call, we want to win, not ladder to 4th place or w/e.

We only have like 12xBB, we're virtually NEVER gonna be crushed by AA/KK after he just open shoves, so we'll be flipping or we have him crushed.

TINTIN

you only have 12bb, its a snap call and be happy about it. your not gonna find many better spots than this for a double up. as they say to win tourneys youve got to win your flips and this one is unavoidable imo.

as for larry1959 post i disagree with pretty much all of it

FlyingDagg

Nothing wrong omm. At that stage of the tourney it's allin or fold and folding AK is 100% wrong. I remember the hand and actually thought you had won it when the Ace came on the turn. Just unlucky.

larry1959

In Response to Re: Final table of dtd, 3/6, think this call for my tournament life was an error because it was against someone who could knock me out rather than a shorter stack. What is the right play?:

you only have 12bb, its a snap call and be happy about it. your not gonna find many better spots than this for a double up. as they say to win tourneys youve got to win your flips and this one is unavoidable imo. as for larry1959 post i disagree with pretty much all of it
Posted by TINTIN

I agreed that there was nothing wrong with the call. All I tried to do was look at the various scenarios, and if you are going to dissagree with a posting then please ellaborate..this is a clinic and so a learning curve for all!!!!

Lambert180

I'm guessing one of the things TinTin disagrees with is that playing the same hand over a period of time we will win. Against this given hand we'll lose more often than we win. The villian doesn't NEED to hit an 8, he just essentially needs to avoid an A or a K, there are 48 cards left in the pack and only 6 he has to avoid. The odds of making flushes are pretty slim, the odds of making a straight draw which can only ever be a GS are also slim, the odds of the board double pairing over with both pairs being over 8 are very slim. On top of that, us hitting an A or K doesn't even guarantee winning the hand (like above)

All the above are possible outs but wouldn't be putting too much weight on these things as outs, essentially in this case, the guy with 88 is favourite to win.

P.S. AKs is more than 'reasonably good'

larry1959

In Response to Re: Final table of dtd, 3/6, think this call for my tournament life was an error because it was against someone who could knock me out rather than a shorter stack. What is the right play?:

I'm guessing one of the things TinTin disagrees with is that playing the same hand over a period of time we will win. Against this given hand we'll lose more often than we win. The villian doesn't NEED to hit an 8, he just essentially needs to avoid an A or a K, there are 48 cards left in the pack and only 6 he has to avoid. The odds of making flushes are pretty slim, the odds of making a straight draw which can only ever be a GS are also slim, the odds of the board double pairing over with both pairs being over 8 are very slim. On top of that, us hitting an A or K doesn't even guarantee winning the hand (like above) All the above are possible outs but wouldn't be putting too much weight on these things as outs, essentially in this case, the guy with 88 is favourite to win. P.S. AKs is more than 'reasonably good'
Posted by Lambert180

Thank you Lambert for explaining... I see the logic behind the thinking... and there is no way we are folding AK suited..perhaps the use of 'reasonable' for this starting hand was a little understated...lol

TINTIN

In Response to Re: Final table of dtd, 3/6, think this call for my tournament life was an error because it was against someone who could knock me out rather than a shorter stack. What is the right play?:

In Response to Re: Final table of dtd, 3/6, think this call for my tournament life was an error because it was against someone who could knock me out rather than a shorter stack. What is the right play? : I agreed that there was nothing wrong with the call. All I tried to do was look at the various scenarios, and if you are going to dissagree with a posting then please ellaborate..this is a clinic and so a learning curve for all!!!!
Posted by larry1959

i disagree with you giving the scenario about calling pre if the opponent put in a standard raise, i disagree with the "outs" you have listed, i disagree that the AK will win more over time.

calling pre to a standard raise is bad out of a 12 bb stack, its the easiest push you will find so that scenario you gave is bad.

you cant count 11 hearts, queens and jacks as outs as you need a combo of them to make a hand so they arent single outs to win the hand. the 88 doesnt need to hit just avoid.

the 88 is a slight favourite pre by a couple of %. its called a race because the % is so close but ultimately the 88 will win slightly more

omm

Thanks for the feedback, makes sense that if I want to win I shouldn't be folding. 

larry1959

In Response to Re: Final table of dtd, 3/6, think this call for my tournament life was an error because it was against someone who could knock me out rather than a shorter stack. What is the right play?:

In Response to Re: Final table of dtd, 3/6, think this call for my tournament life was an error because it was against someone who could knock me out rather than a shorter stack. What is the right play? : i disagree with you giving the scenario about calling pre if the opponent put in a standard raise, i disagree with the "outs" you have listed, i disagree that the AK will win more over time. calling pre to a standard raise is bad out of a 12 bb stack, its the easiest push you will find so that scenario you gave is bad. you cant count 11 hearts, queens and jacks as outs as you need a combo of them to make a hand so they arent single outs to win the hand. the 88 doesnt need to hit just avoid. the 88 is a slight favourite pre by a couple of %. its called a race because the % is so close but ultimately the 88 will win slightly more
Posted by TINTIN

Thanks TinTin...now it makes sense...and I agree that basically the odds are close and its about avoidance where the 8's are concerned.... either way tho, again I agree the race is on..

tomo_efc

In that position i would be praying for, AK, Never folding.

GELDY

but as tikay says - easy shove with AK

not so easy call

you don't have to choose to flip for your tournie life if you don't want to

depends on the dynamic between the other players

if they are playing loose maybe let one of them flip first

if tight then get it in

profman15

hi Omm
Dont know what others say as i'd rather make my own opinion. The eff csi(thats sb+bb total divided into your stack) is about 8. Consequently mathematically you are looking at a approx top 8% hand to call. As aks is well within the top 5% of hands it was correct to call. You could easily have had him dominated and otherwise its pretty much an even flip with the extra couple of percent equity for the suitedness. Note the mathematical approach takes no notice of reads, aggression factors or whatever though it makes no difference with AKs to be fair.

Yea you're final table but you're in it to win it. No need to try to ladder here whatsoever and it does become a donkfest on or near final tables because of the csi values involved are so small for most of the players.
Seeing the hand, it was going in anyway.

As an aside this hand is a very similar situ to mine in some ways. The guy you went out to was the same for me in 17th. i had csi of about 6-8. he min raised with 77, i ai'd with AJs in bb. J7X flop and i was out. For a second i thought i was ahead then saw the 7. You may have done the same when the A came but his 8 was also there. It's not nice when the sudden elation is tempered , is it?He probably correctly min r's in my pot with intervening players but correctly calls mathematically speaking my ai when its a hup situation.
Rungood is needed down the stretch...you were unlucky here.