mtt's - stack getting low how do you play

jdsallstar

just curious how people alter their play when their stacks get low in comparison to the blinds.

i.e. when do you change to all in or fold mode? 5/10/15 bb's? when do start looking to get it in with an any 2 shove into an unopened pot? Would you adjust this range if you're at a loose table and more likely to get a call etc

I've been getting to the top 20-30% of mtts quite regularly but struggling to push on for final table spots etc I have to say I've been unlucky on the majority of times I've went out at these stages and I am normally going in with the best hand so not sure where I can improve. Basically below 10 bb's I'm looking to get my chips in if I see a good spot but I most have a half decent hand to do so (unless i'm up against a really tight player I'm confident will fold). Anything below say 7 bb's I'm looking to get my chips in with any semblance of a hand into an unopened pot. Below 5 bb's I'm in the any two shove range.

I've heard the various advice (target middle stacks, target tight players etc) so any other tips/advice for playing middle to late stages of mtt's would be greatly appreciated. I'm nearly finished volume two of Harrington on hold'em at the minute which deals with this sort of thing but not sure I'm learning anything new from it really.
 
thanks
JD

BorinLoner

You might want to look at the earlier play if you're getting towards the last 20% of the field shortstacked alot. It may well be that you're taking the "safe" option a little too much in the earlier stages rather than seeking a bit of thin value. It's the little spots that can add up to alot and frequently mean the difference between regularly being short stacked in the later stages and being comfortably stacked.

profman15

Hi I

10BB's and a 'half-decent hand' needs a bit more care i think. It sounds like you're maybe playing conservatively to get to a position but finding yourself short-stacked. Are you changing gear at different stages of a T? Opening,calling and raising ranges normally differ between early, middle and late stages.
I read both Harringtons when i first started and they are really enjoyable, good reads but some would say that poker has moved on a bit since.
Have you considered 3-bet shoves for 15 BB's after a 3xbb raise. There are tables for this. By the way there are shoving and calling lists based on position and  stack-size based on csi(total of sb +bb+antes divided into your stack size. You can adapt it for no of big blinds easily as antes aren't on sky).
Its a mathematical approach but provides a good foundation to build additional instinct on. I'd suggest you buy 'Kill Everyone' which has polarised opinions, to be fair. I find , as an ex maths teacher, the approach of a number of the chapters well set out and thought provoking.
Believe me, i'm not a great mtt player and need to improve but it will provide some lists which i'm sure you will find helpful. and enable you to refine them as your experience grows. Good luck m8...

rancid

You don't wanna go below 10bb -
12-15bb then get em in
if ya spot dead then 7/8bb is danger zone

look at your bubble play, are you aggro enough to collect chips

you just waiting too long and blinding away, leaving yourself with a non playable stack

jdsallstar

In Response to Re: mtt's - stack getting low how do you play:

You might want to look at the earlier play if you're getting towards the last 20% of the field shortstacked alot. It may well be that you're taking the "safe" option a little too much in the earlier stages rather than seeking a bit of thin value. It's the little spots that can add up to alot and frequently mean the difference between regularly being short stacked in the later stages and being comfortably stacked.
Posted by BorinLoner

Thanks for the reply - could you expand a bit on the line above?

jdsallstar

In Response to Re: mtt's - stack getting low how do you play:

Hi I 10BB's and a 'half-decent hand' needs a bit more care i think. It sounds like you're maybe playing conservatively to get to a position but finding yourself short-stacked. Are you changing gear at different stages of a T? Opening , calling and rai sing ranges normally differ between early, middle and late stages. I read both Harringtons when i first started and they are really enjoyable, good reads but some would say that poker has moved on a bit since. Have you considered 3-bet shoves for 15 BB's after a 3xbb raise. There are tables for this. By the way there are shoving and calling lists based on position and  stack-size based on csi(total of sb +bb+antes divided into your stack size. You can adapt it for no of big blinds easily as antes aren't on sky). Its a mathematical approach but provides a good foundation to build additional instinct on. I'd suggest you buy 'Kill Everyone' which has polarised opinions, to be fair. I find , as an ex maths teacher, the approach of a number of the chapters well set out and thought provoking. Believe me, i'm not a great mtt player and need to improve but it will provide some lists which i'm sure you will find helpful. and enable you to refine them as your experience grows. Good luck m8...
Posted by profman15

thanks for the book suggestions I'll see if I can pick up a copy.

jdsallstar

In Response to Re: mtt's - stack getting low how do you play:

You don't wanna go below 10bb - 12-15bb then get em in if ya spot dead then 7/8bb is danger zone look at your bubble play, are you aggro enough to collect chips you just waiting too long and blinding away, leaving yourself with a non playable stack
Posted by rancid

this is the area I've been trying to improve but it seems every time I make a move I run into someone with a genuine hand

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: mtt's - stack getting low how do you play:

In Response to Re: mtt's - stack getting low how do you play : Thanks for the reply - could you expand a bit on the line above?
Posted by jdsallstar

On the TV show one or two of the presenters (Richard Orford) confuse this term to mean a small value bet. What it really means is betting when we only have a moderately strong hand but think that a slight majority of the hands our opponent will call or raise with are hands that we beat. A value bet doesn't necessarily have to be small to be considered "thin".

If on the river we think that our opponent will call or raise a bet from us with ten hands and we only beat six of them, that would be a thin value spot. Alot of players would be tempted to check back on the river with hands like just top pair to "play it safe". In reality they're just missing value if they can have a bet called by a range the majority of which they beat.

So look back through your hand history at the end of a tournament and ask yourself where you might have missed just a little bit of value. Also look at situations you actually have value bet, where you might have bet a little more. The big hands are the ones that attract our attention most but lots of little missed bets add up to just as much of a problem in the long term.

CraigSG1

Hi,

Firstly, getting short in MTT's is very common. It can happen any time for any reason so short stack skills are very important. Even when you do well and get to the final table, mostly you are not going to have more than a 20 BB stack which to some is a short stack.

I would recomend you are aware of how many BB you have at anyone time and when you get to say the 25 BB level you need to start thinking about what you need to do if nothing happens for you in the next few orbits. So, pay particular attention to who is raise/folding and what amounts they will raise/fold. For e.g. alot of players will min raise fold and 3x call so be aware. 

Dont panic at this stage, even down to 15 BB as patience can be rewarding. Below this, you need to try and find ways to win pots uncontested as at this stage risks are needed. So, for example, 2 ppl limp and its folded to your BB then you have a good chance of picking up the pot with a shove with any hand. Your looking for dead money at this stage, so open shoving with a very wide range on the button to just pick up blinds is more risky so you need to make your risks more rewarding (and ppl expect you to make a move on the button).

When short be very carefull with what you 3 bet push with. Its far better to be first in with 98o then to call off with KJo or A7o (unless the player you are shoving on is raising most hands - nothing is a certainy in poker).

I could go on but its more of an experiance thing you need so my biggest tip is to play as many SNG as possible and practice. To win SNG's you need to find spots to win pots with rubbish hands more than you would in an MTT. Try and play 10 seaters as they have a well defined beginning, middle and end. I promise you it will work wonders.

Craig.