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did i ask for this???
waller02
Member Posts: 9,072
Not sure I played this hand well at all.....
Oppo is one the best 4nl regs capable of making big folds.
Pre......I didn't 4 bet because I didn't really wanna get it in pre if I was shoved on. Just calling ok or bad???
Flop.....Loving life, just flatted because I don't want a fold.
Turn.....Should have shoved I feel??
Is not shoving the turn a big mistake, How should I have played this hand??
Oppo is one the best 4nl regs capable of making big folds.
Pre......I didn't 4 bet because I didn't really wanna get it in pre if I was shoved on. Just calling ok or bad???
Flop.....Loving life, just flatted because I don't want a fold.
Turn.....Should have shoved I feel??
Is not shoving the turn a big mistake, How should I have played this hand??
| mordaw18 | Small blind | £0.02 | £0.02 | £3.02 | |
| x | Big blind | £0.04 | £0.06 | £6.79 | |
| fluxline | Big blind | £0.04 | £0.10 | £3.96 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| pontyace10 | Call | £0.04 | £0.14 | £4.90 | |
| waller02 | Raise | £0.20 | £0.34 | £6.08 | |
| fluxline | Fold | ||||
| hansol | Fold | ||||
| mordaw18 | Fold | ||||
| x | Raise | £0.80 | £1.14 | £5.99 | |
| pontyace10 | Call | £0.80 | £1.94 | £4.10 | |
| waller02 | Call | £0.64 | £2.58 | £5.44 | |
| Flop | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| |||||
| x | Bet | £1.36 | £3.94 | £4.63 | |
| pontyace10 | Fold | ||||
| waller02 | Call | £1.36 | £5.30 | £4.08 | |
| Turn | |||||
| |||||
| x | Check | ||||
| waller02 | Bet | £2.65 | £7.95 | £1.43 | |
| x | Call | £2.65 | £10.60 | £1.98 | |
| River | |||||
| |||||
| x | All-in | £1.98 | £12.58 | £0.00 | |
| waller02 | All-in | £1.43 | £14.01 | £0.00 | |
| x | Unmatched bet | £0.55 | £13.46 | £0.55 | |
| x | Show |
| |||
| waller02 | Show |
| |||
| x | Win | Three Kings | £12.45 | £13.00 | |
Comments
After that, flat flop is fine, turn I get it in. Although I don't think you'd get him to fold for an extra £1.50 into a £10 pot AND we don't WANT him to fold anyway when he's drawing to 2 outs
Yeah turn was a mistake I thought too but I was desperate for a call.
The 1 time you hit, you've called 64p and need to win about £5 just to make calling break even (obv we don't want to be break even, we want to win). So you need to be winning more £££ to make up for the times you make a set but they all fold, or you make a set, but so do they and you still lose.
People generally say to set-mine you need to be able to win 15-20 times what you had to call to set mine. So on the low side, calling here, you need to be able to win £9.60... on the high side £12.80. I doubt either is gonna happen.
Seriously though, cheers for explaining so clearly mate.
On another note, against a standard 4nl player would you be happy 4 betting with a view of getting it in with JJ?
All you can really say is that you need to be able to win 7.5x the amount of the call to make a set-mine break-even. That means the closer you get to having only this amount back in effective stacks, the more certain you have to be that you will get the lot.
So against a super-tight player you know only 3-bets AA or KK, why not set-mine for 12x the amount to call? Obviously getting too close to that 7.5x amount leaves us with problems of i) When we hit a set but still don't win or ii) When we hit a set on an Ace-high board and they don't pay us with KK.
However I really don't agree with having an arbitrary figure of 15x-20x. Against some players in some circumstances we can go a fair bit lower. Against other players, set-mining with 20x isn't enough because their range is too wide.
In this hand, 7.5x the call is £4.80 and we can win a combined £7.93 from the 3-better including the money in the pot. That's about 12.4x the price of the call. You have to be very sure that this guy has only AA, KK or possibly QQ in his 3-bettin range to set-mine, but if he does, then you can set-mine here in my opinion. It won't be the most +EV situation you'll ever see, but it should still be +EV.
If that's the range you're giving him, though, why not just get it in on the flop? In my mind, it's either a mistake to set-mine pre-flop because you don't think his range is tight enough or it's a mistake to not get it in on the flop against that range.
I'm trying to get to grips with 4nl
I edited my post before your reply to say that either you were making a mistake by set-mining against too wide a range or you were making a mistake by not getting it in on the flop against the super-tight range. You replied too quickly for my edit, though.
Generally speaking I wouldn't expect players to want to call off 100BB with TT or worse but there are some players who will. Think about their opening ranges when deciding to 3-bet and think about their 3-betting range when deciding to call, fold or 4-bet.
Beginners all make a lot of the same mistakes but we still need to think of them as individuals. Readless, I wouldn't want to get 100BB in pre-flop against any player at any level. With reads on a particular individual, I would.
How about my second highlighted part?
EDIT: By standard I mean the types who struggle to fold any ace or suited picture card pre flop (or ANY suited cards) which I'm discovering is a good portion of players. But yeah, great reply as ever. I guess it's working out which ones they are and making notes.
Cheers Borin
I agree we should be opponent specific and we shouldn't get too lazy but I think I know what you mean, and against alot of the loose bad players, I would be happy getting in 100xBB with JJ. I'm happy getting in JJ pre at 30NL too against....
1) some really bad opponents
2) some good opponents who have wider 3/4bet ranges and are getting it in wider than just AA/KK.
It's the nits (which the winning players at 4NL will mostly be) that I'd really avoid doing it against, unless you have dynamics with that particular player, they've seen you get it in light, they'd got it in light before specifically against you in the past etc.