How do i Bluff river?

robbie1992

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
robbie1992	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£18.78
medster125	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£8.78
	Your hole cards	4 4
TINTIN	Fold
karakajack	Call		£0.10	£0.25	£10.89
riken6398	Fold
devonfish5	Fold
robbie1992	Raise		£0.50	£0.75	£18.28
medster125	Fold
karakajack	Call		£0.45	£1.20	£10.44
Flop
		10 5 6
robbie1992	Check
karakajack	Bet		£0.60	£1.80	£9.84
robbie1992	Call		£0.60	£2.40	£17.68
Turn
		J
robbie1992	Check
karakajack	Bet		£0.40	£2.80	£9.44
robbie1992	Raise		£1.60	£4.40	£16.08
karakajack	Call		£1.20	£5.60	£8.24
River
		8
robbie1992	Check
karakajack	Check
robbie1992	Show	4 4
karakajack	Show	Q 10
karakajack	Win	Pair of 10s	£5.18		£13.42

Opponent was loose passive, and I thought he would fold a 10 on turn which is what I thought he had.  Should I be bluffing here? and once I do how do I bluff river , overbet shove the river or 2/3rds/pot bet?

liamboi11

if you are going to bluff you gotta know your opponents really well before you do things like their ranges/bet sizing/tendencies etc.

I also think you kinda answered your own question his style his loose passive so most these types are players just don`t fold when they have a pair,but if you want to bluff river think to yourself how much you would bet if you had a flush for example and bet that but no point if they don`t fold a pair.

hope this helps buddy

robbie1992

Cheers Liam, it's true I'm not convinced he would fold a pair, I thought the c/r on turn would of done the job. Just been working on board textures and perceived range and stuff so wanted to try it and get thoughts on it. I don't think it's awful but maybe board is too wet and wrong move against wrong opponent, cheers tho Liam.

huuuuume

your line doesn't make any sense so it's a good job you didn't bet the river.

check/calling the flop to check/raise the turn doesnt make sense here because that would never be the line you would take with any strong hands.  the turn card is a bad card for you to bluff at because you can't really have a flush because you would have cbet the flop with any flush draw.

NColley

pre is really bad, just completing the small blind is just tonnes better then raising here. they'd be more justification is villain just folded tones post flop but hes a station so yeah...

as played c/f flop, c/f turn

percival09

how is pre really bad? If villain is just folding tonnes to cbets and playing really face up then it's standard to iso even oop if it's so easy to just take post. If villain doesn't fold to any cbets and just a pure warrior then I prefer just making up the blinds

flop either cbet or c/f .. I think I prefer c/f on this flop

turn I don't even know what's going on

rancid

hand is a mess

raise pre is fine, making up the sb versus one limper is criminal


no c bet on flop is criminal

if your going to c/r turn then you have to bet river

TommyD

Ahhh, turning hands into a bluff, one of my favourite past times.

Flop, I'm c/fing this flop most of the time.  Other times I might cbet, villain dependant.  I think c/c is the worst line here against anyone.

Turn.  So they've bet weird and we now decide that they are weak but they beat us.  So we turn our holding into a bluff.  Not bad thinking.

Check list:

1)  Given the action previous can we tell a convincing story of having enough in our range which now lead to crush on this board?

Ask yourself are you c/c AcXc on this board?  Do we c/c all sets?  Do we c/c JT?  Do we c/c KcQc?  etc?  Be honest with yourself here, it'll save you money in the long term.  If you lead most of these hands with the preflop betting lead then it's a no.

2)  Does the villain fold enough marginal to junky holdings?  You've said loose passive, is this in reference to their preflop hand selection or their overall attitude to the streets?

3)  Are effective stacks deep enough to get folds and is the pot to stack ratio steep enough to get fold?  With over 90bb effective behind I think the first part is a yes in this case.  The P2S ratio is better than 1:3 so he's not too invested and there is not too much relative in there so this is ok too.

4)  Do we have the testicular fortitude to see this through?  This is never a set answer.  As much as people may think they always have the stuff to bluff the lot on any given Sunday this is a lie we tell to our self.  I've had sessions where I haven't played well and I have chickened out of spots.  What are we like today?  It's not easy to put our stack into the centre knowing we have the worst hand and knowing we're going to look silly when they find the middle button.

Now, how are you feeling about the answers to the above questions.  If you've got a ton of yes answer then lovely.  Bet slightly bigger on the turn to give us a pot sized jam on the river.  And see it through. 

robbie1992

Lol this must not of been my given Sunday I must of left my testicles somwhere else because I bottled it, think I get it through if I don't bottle it looking at his holdings. I don't no what I was doing on the flop it doesn't make sense now I look back, pre is fine if I bet that flop aswell, but I shoulda made up in the sb if I'm just gonna check it.

The turn is a good card to bluff isn't it ? Seeing as I thought he had a 10 or is thre still alot of his range that calls?

huuuuume

the only reason the turn would change anything is if it looks like it could have improved your hand.  it might be an overcard to their pair of 10s but it's not relevant if its unlikely you have a J.  how many Jx hands can you have here?  how many of those Jx hands would you be reraising?

the turn is a bad card because so little of your range hits it.  also, the bits of your range that might hit it e.g. one pair hands would never check raise because they would be scared of the flush.  for example you wouldnt reraise the turn with AJ

why would he fold his pair of 10s?

robbie1992

What an example of a board where this works then? Or does a c/r never work because you would call ur value hands to the river to keep in worse?

TommyD

You've seen the turn is a third club right Huuuuuume?

The problem with our story is flush draws bet the flop.  JT bets the flop.  You're basically repping a lower set or Ac5c when you raise the turn.  In other words you're repping pretty thin and he's never folding anything of value on the turn.  However betting the river and following through may get some players to fold some holdings.  All of this gets a ton easier if we bet the flop, we now have a much larger perceived value range and get take more advantages while putting more pressure on our opponent.

rancid

if hero doesn't bet 44 on this flop, it's conceivable hero checks FD's

hero can get folds on river unless oppo just stations

TommyD

In Response to Re: How do i Bluff river?:

if hero doesn't bet 44 on this flop, it's conceivable hero checks FD's hero can get folds on river unless oppo just stations
Posted by rancid

Disagree Rancid.  I just don't think it's convincing to say we've raised a limper from the SB with clubs and not continue with the betting on this flop.

Now sometimes it's just about convincing them through betting if they are not thinking that deep or play a little too weak on the river so I'm not saying you can't do it, just much easier to do it by betting the flop.

huuuuume

In Response to Re: How do i Bluff river?:

You've seen the turn is a third club right Huuuuuume? The problem with our story is flush draws bet the flop.  JT bets the flop.  You're basically repping a lower set or Ac5c when you raise the turn.  In other words you're repping pretty thin and he's never folding anything of value on the turn.  However betting the river and following through may get some players to fold some holdings.  All of this gets a ton easier if we bet the flop, we now have a much larger perceived value range and get take more advantages while putting more pressure on our opponent.
Posted by TommyD

this is why i think the turn is a bad card for bluffing because it's so unlikely we check/called any flush draws oop imo. also, it could possibly improve villain's hand which would mean there are times where we will be punting our 44 into a monster.

TommyD

In Response to Re: How do i Bluff river?:

In Response to Re: How do i Bluff river? : this is why i think the turn is a bad card for bluffing because it's so unlikely we check/called any flush draws oop imo. also, it could possibly improve villain's hand which would mean there are times where we will be punting our 44 into a monster.
Posted by huuuuume

I think at 10NL you can convince some players you checked a flush draw but I agree with everything you've put TBH, especially about them having more clubs in their range as played than us.

rancid

In Response to Re: How do i Bluff river?:

In Response to Re: How do i Bluff river? : I think at 10NL you can convince some players you checked a flush draw but I agree with everything you've put TBH, especially about them having more clubs in their range as played than us.
Posted by TommyD

Think it's very possible in the nl10 passive games for checking FD's + non TP hands and then going loopy - so robs line is not that bad.

But do agree it's not the most convincing line versus more thinking players. so bet flop +1

But do we think firing 3 barrels going to be more convincing than c/r turn :S undecided....
Guess I am just thinking that stations will station, but may fold to a strong c/r than a river bullet.
Tis funny how a check in the right place will make a thinking player beleive you full of it though.......