Lose value on river by just calling?

rancid

In Response to Re: Lose value on river by just calling?:

In Response to Re: Lose value on river by just calling? : its only relevnat to think of our b/e number when c/bettin cos sometimes we can get called but can still barrell and win or still barrell and lose a higher amount.. its hard to know vs two villans how often they actually call vs cbet.. we need to think about board texture to cbet.. i think we get looked up too often with ahigh, all pairs, 10x and the j9,jq,97 type hands.. forcing us to lose a higher amount when we barrell off and lose .. in reality do i think my cbet will show a profit vs two villans enough of the time on this board ?
Posted by LnarinOO

Just read  through the whole thread and this jumps at me

This is the question what will show a profit with our range if we check or bet.

So our betting range will show xEV

our checking range will show xEV

Both lines should yield a +EV overall with our optimal range

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If we talk about exploiting oppo's in spots like this then in all honestly good luck because as you mention oppo should c/f flop because how is oppo going to boss/exploit opening 75s and c/f flops.

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so if oppo is playing optimal or exploitative I really don't see how opening 75s and checking flop is going to be +EV - unless hero is looking to exploit oppo tendacies to fold on these kind of flops
If hero is looking to exploit oppo tendacies then what range do they expect oppo to fold on turn that they can't fold out on flop then barreling -

We are making assumptions that we shouldn't c bet flop because oppo have a better range and they more likely to call.
How are we exploiting oppo tendacies if they calling with a better range pre and also not folding better range post.

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I find this discussion intresting and feel all points made are valid
Think it's more beneficial to discuss hero's startegy and how this hand sits within that strategy.

But I guess it's just a random open with 75s )

and yes poker is a very complicated game )

LnarinOO

thats correct that we should be tryin to solve the best line to maximise our expectation in any given hand or even better still, groups of hands. ie how did the last 100 hands affect the way the im goin to play the next 100- this is how dynamics form for us to be able to play the most profitable form of poker...

i agree that check givin up holds no value and didnt want that to come accross as what i meant.. obvs were jus given up on the money we invested but as stated before we only see one hand and in this case get looked up in 2 spots.. this is the problem here.. as stated before if this happens too much then i would not be openin 57.. this is where the intial problem lies.. however we dnt know if this has been happenin alot or not so i can only make assupmtions on this hand in question.. im makin my assuptions on the basis that i dont know either of the villans so im sayin how i would play the hand readless and once ive got to the flop, i know if our cbet is called (and i think thats a high % on this texture) im gonna probally have to barrell 3 streets to get through.. in my eyes theres no shame in givin the pot up until i no it will work or have reasons to do otherwise.. i dont think its a case of only having to flop equity to make this work my opinions are based on the infor mation provided and didnt like the bet 100%of hands bit..

agreed an intersting hand with good discussion. exactly how i like it because we can all learn from different POV including myself whether we agree or not.. and hah rancid ur post made me chuckle cos of how many times u said the word range lol

rancid

You could say I am bit obsessed with range )

game theory optimal verus exploitable poker is always a good debate

espeically on prd flops as pfr which is more profitbale

funny thing is by playing exploitable poker your just going to either be exploited or exploit yourself )

dub1

Unless you're Ike Haxton or 'insert nosebleed NLHE grinder here' then opening 75s from MP at NL10 is going to be -EV because of rake. End of discussion.