MTT's

LARSON7

Hey!

Is there any decent winning MTT players would mind looking over a few MTT hands sometime/ given a bit of feedback on hands how they were played?

I'm decent enough at Cash and HU Games, but MTT's have really been a weak point the last while. The last time i won an MTT (online) was months ago. I seem to get into the mid to late stages, like 30% of the field left and struggle from there on in. I know that's my weakness in tournies.

I played an MTT tonight, there was 60 left out of 200 plus, then this hand happened, Pocket Aces Busted with 10s leaving me 800 chips. I won a hand taken me up to 2300, then got this in with AQ against chip leaders A8 suited, flop came down giving him a straight and flush draw, straight hut!

I was playing quite well, and i know i'm just unlucky with the aces hand, but take out getting a monster and getting a call, at this stage in a tournie i'm not sure what the optimal way to play is.

If any good MTT player would be up for a chat sometime about the mid stages of a Tournie/ Strategy around this send me a message or let me know on here. Thanks

blacc	Fold
williwont	Fold
YfragLDN	Call		150.00	375.00	20712.50
beesting30	Fold
LARSON7	Raise		450.00	825.00	4405.00
Avaty	All-in		3950.00	4775.00	0.00
YfragLDN	Fold
LARSON7	Call		3575.00	8350.00	830.00
LARSON7	Show	A A
Avaty	Show	10 10
Flop
		6 2 8
Turn
		10
River
		Q
Avaty	Win	Three 10s	8350.00

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
beesting30	Small blind		100.00	100.00	1160.00
LARSON7	Big blind		200.00	300.00	2160.00
	Your hole cards	A Q
Avaty	Fold
williwont	Fold
YfragLDN	Call		200.00	500.00	24367.50
beesting30	Fold
LARSON7	All-in		2160.00	2660.00	0.00
YfragLDN	Call		2160.00	4820.00	22207.50
LARSON7	Show	A Q
YfragLDN	Show	A 8
Flop
		J 9 7
Turn
		10
River
		4
YfragLDN	Win	Straight to the Jack	4820.00

profman15

Hi L

I wouldn't class mysellf as being very good at MTT's but i would like to give an opinion. Getting past the middle stages of MTT's can be done with TAG play and not too many chances taken, i feel. It's that change of gear that's needed after that which will propel you into the cashes and particularly the top three which you should always aim for.
The AA is perfectly played imo.
The AQo hand , for your stack size, is perfectly played by yourself and the call call by A8s is perfectly acceptable too though he should always raise pre imo. There are shove/call charts for certain stack sizes which are available and will make these decisions for you should you be readless.
Good luck in MTT's

LARSON7

Thanks Prof, 

That's my weakness in MTT's "the change of gear" i would say i'm not very good at this at all.

The aces hand above, plays itself, really easy. But outside of big starting hands, i'm not sure how to "change gears"

Early doors in tournies is pretty straight forward, as is the later stages where most are really shallow.

It's just the middle ground i struggle with. Quite often i'll get deep, but am sitting shortish stacked past the bubble.

seppe

Standard stuff, dont know what feedback your expecting tbh

Hand 1.  You got what you wanted aa all in pre.

Hand 2. 10 bigs with aq standard shove.

LARSON7

In Response to Re: MTT's:

Standard stuff, dont know what feedback your expecting tbh Hand 1.  You got what you wanted aa all in pre. Hand 2. 10 bigs with aq standard shove.
Posted by seppe

lol yeah mate, my post wasn't very clear. I wasn't looking for feedback on those hands, they play themselves.

I'm seeing if anyone would be up for given me a bit of help with the mid stages of a tournie, talking through some things, maybe look at a few hands.

gazza127

I play a load of MTTs and im not too shabby at them even if i do say so myself.  I'll happily take a look at some things if you want.

But as you say a lot of hands do play themselves when you are shortstacked around the bubble, but if you want to ask my opinion on anything specific im happy to bounce some ideas around.  Itd be nice for me too to see what other players think of specific situations.

hhyftrftdr

I know it sounds obvious but try not to let your stack dwindle as you approach the bubble. It's a great time to chip up and steal blinds. And don't be afraid to try a potentially risky move if you think you can get it through. 

Fortune favours the brave. 

THEROCK573

In Response to Re: MTT's:

I know it sounds obvious but try not to let your stack dwindle as you approach the bubble. It's a great time to chip up and steal blinds. And don't be afraid to try a potentially risky move if you think you can get it through.  Fortune favours the brave. 
Posted by hhyftrftdr

agree with your bubble crack but fortune certianly does not favour the brave and telling him to try risky moves isnt going to help him either because in my experience the majority of people struggle to fold bottom pair on sky, larsson just play TAG and learn how to play certain stack sizes correctly and you will be fine, theres some goot mtt players on sky but there far outweighd by the bad ones, i win fairly consistntantly and im probably a below average player but people will donate there chips to you without you having to do to much!!! gl

GELDY

What is important is to get the value from the hands you win which will give you the ability to last through a period without a hand.

so maybe more focus on squeezing out the value early on is all you need to be targeting for now

DeucesLive

If you want feedback, might be better to post better examples... I mean, that's just two ultra standard spots, if you really want the advice either no hands or hands you feel you could improve on would be better. I don't see the point of those hands...

In my opinion, the mid to late stages are entirely dependent on chip stacks. If you have a smallish stack (sub 12bbs) just look for spots and hands to get your chips in the middle. With a middling stack (anywhere up to 35bbs) I'd be much tighter in opening range, looking solely to open premium hands or in good spots for steals (i.e big 3bet shoves preflop). The reason here is, you don't want to open too many pots and get shoved on- because you're committing large percentages of your stack each time. With a large stack (upwards of 35bbs), you can start bullying the table wherever possible, but do your best to avoid clashing with other large stacks. Focus on attacking the guys you cover at least twice over- they have to really think twice about firing back at you, and you have the advantage of having a playable stack even if you lose. If you lock horns with similar chip stacks, you need to have something massive to go all the way- you're risking a great shot at a win by tangling with them.

That leads to the other concern- watch the stack sizes closely. If they cover you by too much, they can call you wider- so bet your range accordingly, you can get better action from premium hands, but be careful of bluffing. Similarly, small stacks will call wider too out of desperation, so be careful when raising against them. The 10-25bb range is the best to attack, because they have the same problem I said earlier- any chips put in are dangerously close to pot committing.

My opinion is the late stages are where aggression rules. People tighten up massively for the most part in an attempt to ladder up, but the top is where the cash is at. Aim for 1 big cash in 10 rather than 4/5 mincashes in 10.

sillymunch

think of it like this..... your a good cash player, and thats great you should totally dominate the early stages of the MTTs, early on play it like you would a cash game, you have 100BB so alot of fold equity and alot of implied odds

Once you reach 50BB this is where your game suddenly changes, if your in a speed MTT you cant open too many pots and fold them because the blinds catch up with you so quickly, however if your in 10 minute blinds then your in good shape to steal some blinds and risking a little bit, (remember the gap concept) you have to have a better hand to call a raise with then you need to raise a hand, so start using your position (alot of sky poker MTT players do not understand the gap concept, and will call in the hope to get lucky) these people are great, because they miss 2 in 3, so most of the time they are chucking chips away to you if you play it right.

Once you get down to 30BB again if its a speed your now prety much looking for opportunitys to stack off, in the 10 minute blind levels you have a lot more leniency but your looking to play your strong hands strong, 

Once the blinds go up again if you havent stacked off yet then you will be down to 15BB if you have anything less then 15BB your only move really is all in, but you can be selective how often you do this and with what hands, by this time you know your opponents and what they are playing

The final straw is 5BB if you ever get this low your looking to get all your chips in regardless, you will get called but your looking for 2 live cards at a minimum you will only be 40% chance of surviving unless they wake up with a PP, but you shouldnt be getting this low.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: MTT's:

In Response to Re: MTT's : agree with your bubble crack but fortune certianly does not favour the brave and telling him to try risky moves isnt going to help him either because in my experience the majority of people struggle to fold bottom pair on sky, larsson just play TAG and learn how to play certain stack sizes correctly and you will be fine, theres some goot mtt players on sky but there far outweighd by the bad ones, i win fairly consistntantly and im probably a below average player but people will donate there chips to you without you having to do to much!!! gl
Posted by THEROCK573

Perhaps I worded it wrong as I'm not telling him to go crazy and start making moves with 9 high. What I meant was again to do with the bubble. If you can identify any players at your table that are just looking to sneak into the money then look to isolate and apply maximum pressure on them.

People play too tight around the bubble, then too loose once it has burst, when it probably should be the other way round.

LARSON7

Thanks everyone for your responses, some really fantastic posts.

I've sent you a pm gazza.

Wacko90

Am happy to help Larson if you PM me.

gazza127

In Response to Re: MTT's:

Thanks everyone for your responses, some really fantastic posts. I've sent you a pm gazza.
Posted by LARSON7

replied

CraigSG1

A few tips:

You can get away with not giving 100% attention to an MTT early on when your probably multi tabling and have deep stacks but if you go deep I recomend you close down most tables and concentrate on what you and others are doing. If you get to the final two tables I recomend watching how others are playing on the other table so you have information on them if you meet them later on.

Constantly monitor the chip stacks at your table and how each player is playing them. For exmple, are some short stacks limping too much; are some big stacks involved in most hands; is there a mid stack allin 3 betting alot etc. You need as much information as possible at hand as you well know. 

Just make sure your bets and raises have a reason and you are aware who you will call and who you will fold to BEFORE YOU ACT. If they come over the top which will happen more often late on you will have a much easier decision to make. 

LARSON7

MTT Tournie tonight, about 30 left, get it in AK against AQ and lose! Average is 16 k, this would take me to well above average.

Since i started this thread, i've played 5 tournies, and 3 times i've got knocked out when i've got it in with a dominating Ace lol

Sparko11	Small blind		200.00	200.00	5715.00
damac	Big blind		400.00	600.00	28426.00
	Your hole cards	A K
thedoge12	Fold
LARSON7	Raise		800.00	1400.00	11648.25
-LEON-	Raise		1200.00	2600.00	14547.50
c_a_f_c10	Fold
Sparko11	Fold
damac	Fold
LARSON7	All-in		11648.25	14248.25	0.00
-LEON-	Call		11248.25	25496.50	3299.25
LARSON7	Show	A K
-LEON-	Show	A Q
Flop
		8 2 4
Turn
		Q
River
		8
-LEON-	Win	Two Pairs, Queens and 8s	25496.

CraigSG1

In Response to Re: MTT's:

MTT Tournie tonight, about 30 left, get it in AK against AQ and lose! Average is 16 k, this would take me to well above average. Since i started this thread, i've played 5 tournies, and 3 times i've got knocked out when i've got it in with a dominating Ace lol Sparko11 Small blind   200.00 200.00 5715.00 damac Big blind   400.00 600.00 28426.00   Your hole cards A K       thedoge12 Fold         LARSON7 Raise   800.00 1400.00 11648.25 -LEON- Raise   1200.00 2600.00 14547.50 c_a_f_c10 Fold         Sparko11 Fold         damac Fold         LARSON7 All-in   11648.25 14248.25 0.00 -LEON- Call   11248.25 25496.50 3299.25 LARSON7 Show A K       -LEON- Show A Q       Flop     8 2 4       Turn     Q       River     8       -LEON- Win Two Pairs, Queens and 8s 25496.
Posted by LARSON7

Just variance. Unlucky. All I would say IMO in early position I would make that 2.5 BB as you don't really want a multiway pot. In late pos a min raise is fine. Just a general rule, it's table dependant. Some tables a min raise is all you need but mostly ppl do like to call and if you get one invariably you'll get another. 

Simmy4k

In Response to MTT's:

Hey! Is there any decent winning MTT players

no

profman15

Hi L

3 bad beats isn't extraordinary tbh. consider yourself owed by the poker gods!.

Utg, raise a little bit more...maybe 2.5-3bb. It stops marginals playing even sppr's. Btw, i think you should obliterate Leon's name in the eg above. He doesn't want his tendancies advertised. TBh his raise is poor really and should be 2 !/2 xbb and if this is one third of the eff stack then he should consider AI shove. The raise has no effect whatsoever really. You made the correct play overall and would do the same in the future. Thats fine...keep it up m8!

LARSON7

Played another MTT on another site.

Was sitting with 10k, 40 left (20 was the bubble) i was about 17th in chips.

Sitting with pocket queens in BB, guy raises, table maniac bets to 2.2k i 4 bet Jam! Initial raiser folds, maniac calls with Ace 8 spades, flop x x x all spades lol

Bit brutal lol

I'm gonna play in the community, 3 games for a fiver 2 morrow night. Never played in it before, but sounds like good fun.

Thanks to the people who said they didn't mind looking at some hands. I'll take a note of crucial/ critical/ interesting hands  and have a look at them later.

Update: Since i started this thread i've played about 8/9 Mtts, ran deepish in most, went out early in 2. I've min cashed once and final tabled once, ending up 4th, getting it in AJ vrs KK, with 10 bb.