DTD Game Tough Turn Decision

LARSON7

Player hadn't been getting out of line, what would you do on the turn?  LARSON7	Small blind		75.00	75.00	12942.50
longhair21	Big blind		150.00	225.00	3222.50
	Your hole cards	J J
POKERTREV	Fold
HITMAN_RV	Fold
luvBWFC	Raise		450.00	675.00	9665.00
scwuffy54	Fold
LARSON7	Call		375.00	1050.00	12567.50
longhair21	Fold
Flop
		5 10 3
LARSON7	Check
luvBWFC	Bet		525.00	1575.00	9140.00
LARSON7	Call		525.00	2100.00	12042.50
Turn
		2
LARSON7	Check
luvBWFC	Bet		2100.00	4200.00	7040.00
LARSON7	??

hhyftrftdr

Call him down!

Lambert180

Yup, call him down.

LARSON7

I folded, hes bet pot on the turn, to ship the river.

Looks like i was crushed

hhyftrftdr

I've played against villain before and know he can be very aggro, hence the call down suggestion. Vs an unknown, can understand a fold on the turn. Though if you're gonna fold the turn, why call on the flop? Whats your plan/thinking for further streets when you call the flop?

I might also be more inclined to call when he bets pot on the turn. This means we have to pretty much call the river regardless.

LARSON7

He hadn't been agro, since the early levels.

My plan was to call down. But the pot bet on the turn is 2 big, pretty much looks like he is setting up to ship the river, and then i'm in a world of pain. Better to just get away on the turn, when i've not done 2 much.

When i call the flop, i'd call down reasonable sized bets. The only hand i'm really beating is Ace 10/ Bluff. Don't think he'd play ace 10 or 99s like this. The way he had been playing, i just got the feeing i was a mile behind.

I could have 3 bet it pre to about 1k, if i'm 4 bet i have to fold jacks in this spot. Maybe that would have been better. The only thing i'm beating is a bluff, and can't see him running a sick bluff here.

hhyftrftdr

To me, the pot bet looks like he's trying to get you to fold exactly the type of hand you have. But you'd call down reasonable, value sized bets? It's tough as I've played him before and know he could be doing this with air.

Why does he go half pot on the flop, to full pot on the turn? Because he's getting desperate *









*or he has AA and is milking you dry.

est1967

Raise the flop then you no much more..By calling you have no idea where you are.Yes his turn bets big but as you just called his bets I think he could rep your hand because you look weak.

Id personally re raise pre rather than call and id deffo re pop on the flop.

Hope you ran well.

LARSON7

In Response to Re: DTD Game Tough Turn Decision:

To me, the pot bet looks like he's trying to get you to fold exactly the type of hand you have. But you'd call down reasonable, value sized bets? It's tough as I've played him before and know he could be doing this with air. Why does he go half pot on the flop, to full pot on the turn? Because he's getting desperate * *or he has AA and is milking you dry.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

lol maybe he had air. I tend to look at how people play hands, and when something is contrary to previous hands then alarm bells start ringing.

If he had air then good luck to him

LARSON7

In Response to Re: DTD Game Tough Turn Decision:

Raise the flop then you no much more..By calling you have no idea where you are.Yes his turn bets big but as you just called his bets I think he could rep your hand because you look weak. Id personally re raise pre rather than call and id deffo re pop on the flop. Hope you ran well.
Posted by est1967

Yeah looking back on it, i should have 3 bet it. If he 4 bets (in this spot) im folding.

If he just calls, and donk bets the this flop, he's getting re-raised. If he check raises, the chips are going in. (on this flop)

I think if i 3 bet and am called, and he does have a hand, i'm getting my stack in here. I called as well, because i didn't really want to be playing a big pot with the other chip leader at the table.

------

I was doing quite well in this tournie, lost with QQs against 9j, all in on the flop, he had a gut shot and his straigh.

Left me with 10 bigs, moved table, in the BB with Ace 7 a guy shoved for a shortish stack, i called. Versus KK which left me 5 bigs lol knocked out 40th

Lambert180

I don't mind 3betting pre, especially against this opponent but raising the flop wuold be really bad imo. If we raise the flop, everything we beat except maybe like AT will fold, and everything that beats us will ship and we'll either just throw away a ton of chips when we fold or get it in bad.

hhyftrftdr

What Lambert says. 3bet pre would be fine. Raising flop after just calling pre not as fine. 

luvBWFC

cant remember the hand. do you have the hand id

luvBWFC

Found it. As it happens, good fold.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
LARSON7	Small blind		75.00	75.00	12942.50
longhair21	Big blind		150.00	225.00	3222.50
	Your hole cards	10 10
POKERTREV	Fold
HITMAN_RV	Fold
luvBWFC	Raise		450.00	675.00	9665.00
scwuffy54	Fold
LARSON7	Call		375.00	1050.00	12567.50
longhair21	Fold
Flop
		5 10 3
LARSON7	Check
luvBWFC	Bet		525.00	1575.00	9140.00
LARSON7	Call		525.00	2100.00	12042.50
Turn
		2
LARSON7	Check
luvBWFC	Bet		2100.00	4200.00	7040.00
LARSON7	Fold
luvBWFC	Muck
luvBWFC	Win		2100.00		9140.00
luvBWFC	Return		2100.00	0.00	11240.00

hhyftrftdr

I'd still call you down

Lambert180

Lesson to be learned here Carl... why do you go full pot on the turn with an absolute monster on a really safe board that it's hard for him to hit?

luvBWFC

played too many hands since, but i can only imagine doing thst if i believe he is strong and will call or jam my scared looking bet. Dont forget the hand is not in isolation, i would have had a feel of the oppo, but cant remember now

luvBWFC

looking at stacks, i may also havw gone the greedy route of sizing an ai or fold situation rather than going the steady value route

LARSON7

In Response to Re: DTD Game Tough Turn Decision:

looking at stacks, i may also havw gone the greedy route of sizing an ai or fold situation rather than going the steady value route
Posted by luvBWFC

Nice hand! Ul you never got paid, most times you would be there.

Re River, if i call the turn bet, your only real bet is to ship it. If i call the turn then a  3/4 or pot bet on river only leaves me a couple of k behind, if i'm calling that i'm calling an all in. Your pot sized bet allowed me to get away from the hand.

profman15

Hi L

Your opponent is a good aggro player with a lot of success but flop could not be better for you really. I could seeing him bet down the streets with nothing certainly but having seen your play. Certainly likes of kt is typical of what he could have. If you've been folding turn bets a lot or been timid then that will form a strategy in his head for you too.I feel that you should call turn. Had he been 3xbb raising? Could have had sppr. He's a good player and has caught me out on numerous occasions as he plays good and bad hands similarly but takes your play into account too. 

LARSON7

In Response to Re: DTD Game Tough Turn Decision:

Hi L Your opponent is a good aggro player with a lot of success but flop could not be better for you really. I could seeing him bet down the streets with nothing certainly but having seen your play. Certainly likes of kt is typical of what he could have. If you've been folding turn bets a lot or been timid then that will form a strategy in his head for you too.I feel that you should call turn. Had he been 3xbb raising? Could have had sppr. He's a good player and has caught me out on numerous occasions as he plays good and bad hands similarly but takes your play into account too. 
Posted by profman15

Hi Profman,

I don't think he's betting pot on the turn as a bluff, it looks like a value bet. Secondly, it looks like he is setting it up to shove the river, or for me to reraise, it's a bet that asks me the question. Imo if he was bluffing he would be betting a lot less. If this was to be a pot sized bet (as a bluff) i really don't like the play, what does he do to a call or a reraise? For these reasons i don't think he is every bluffing here.

If it is a bluff, he has to know that a really high percentage of the time I am folding here. Against me, I don't think you can ever be certain of that.


In this hand, i didn't re-raise pre flop cause i'm out of position, and don't want to be playing an enflated pot with Jacks. There was certain reads involved here, based on having played at the table with the player for an hour or 2.

It is a good flop for Jacks. On the flop, check to the preflop raiser, he bets i just call (again i dont want to enflate the pot/ keep in his AK AQ hands. If i reraise it's hard for him to call with  a worse hand outside of A10 K10, i doub't he'd be 3 xing with K10. Possibly Ace 10, but i didn't really think he had Ace 10.

I thought his range was quite strong QQ KK AA / AK/AQ maybe AJ, 99 10 JJ.

So i'm happy calling his flop bet to keep in the likes of AK AQ, if i reraise it's unlikely im getting called by a worse hand.

I did have pretty strong reads, i wont go into them. But basically, i look at how an opponent plays/ the situation/ position/ previous hands played by players at the table, bet sizing etc etc. I throw that all into come up with an answer.

When the pot sized bet went in, i narrowed the range to AA KK QQ to be fair that's what i was thinking (or a set), as i said above just got the feeling i was crushed after putting all the above together.