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AK late on in MTT, Donk pot bet on the flop
LARSON7
Member Posts: 4,494
After i've min raised opponent donk bets pot on the flop, which i've totally whiffed.
How would you play this here? Any argument for a raise/ shove?
Hand 2, No way we can ever call here is therE?
How would you play this here? Any argument for a raise/ shove?
Hand 2, No way we can ever call here is therE?
| biggunne15 | Small blind | 500.00 | 500.00 | 33367.50 | |
| thomson111 | Big blind | 1000.00 | 1500.00 | 19052.50 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| tiltswtch | Fold | ||||
| TyrionL | Fold | ||||
| LARSON7 | Raise | 2000.00 | 3500.00 | 17654.50 | |
| biggunne15 | Fold | ||||
| thomson111 | Call | 1000.00 | 4500.00 | 18052.50 | |
| Flop | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| |||||
| thomson111 | Bet | 2000.00 | 6500.00 | 16052.50 | |
| LARSON7 | Fold | ||||
| thomson111 | Muck | ||||
| thomson111 | Win | 4500.00 | 20552.50 | ||
| thomson111 | Return | 2000.00 | 0.00 | ||
| biggunne15 | Small blind | 500.00 | 500.00 | 35867.50 | |
| thomson111 | Big blind | 1000.00 | 1500.00 | 22552.50 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| tiltswtch | Fold | ||||
| TyrionL | Fold | ||||
| LARSON7 | Raise | 2000.00 | 3500.00 | 14154.50 | |
| biggunne15 | Fold | ||||
| thomson111 | All-in | 22552.50 | 26052.50 | 0.00 | |
| LARSON7 | Fold | ||||
| thomson111 | Muck | ||||
| thomson111 | Win | 4500.00 | 4500.00 | ||
| thomson111 | Return | 21552.50 | 0.00 | 26052.50 |
Comments
I prob would shove 1-15 bigs, with AK, extend that to 20 bb?
Hand 2, just fold it. You took your shot, he fired back, get out of there. 16 bigs is so borderline for open shoving, I would take that one shot but next time I'd go for the open shove. You're probably ahead with A4, but you're never far ahead- unless he happens to have A3/A2, you're never THAT far ahead, and can easily be a long way behind to a lot (any pair, any bigger A). Played it fine.
Hand 2 - Jam pre
probs flat flop - see turn
hand 2 - m/r folding is fine - if you have dynamic between u and bb then you can consider calling if you think bb is so wide
jamming btn with a4 is just lol
I only have questions
What range of hands are we shoving the btn with @17bb
do the blinds never play back at the button
are you shoving to give blinds easy folds or tough folds
---
by default are you shoving 17BB on btn with AA/KK/QQ/JJ/10'S
why is this good ?
How are villians ever making a mistake if we are shoving ?
Are you advocating shoving a narrow range or wide ?
What are you expecting to be called by if your shoving ?
There's a massive difference between shoving 20xBB and shoving 10xBB and just because we don't do it here doesn't mean we can't do it in different situations (like when someone has raised in front of us) or when we have 14xBB or w/e. It's not a case of shove 20xBB or shove 10xBB and there's no inbetween.
Why would we want FE in this spot? If we're shoving AK with 20xBB just to get folds, what a waste of AK that would be. We may want FE when we 3bet shove AK for instance so we can just pick up 4-5xBB risk free rather than take a 60/40 v JT or a flip v 77s but in this case there's only 1.5xBB to win so it's not worth just wasting AK for that imo.
The risk just doesn't warrant the reward imo. Massive generalisation here but it's true for the most part... the problem with shoving/calling or ranges is that firstly they generally allow for antes and secondly virtually no1 on Sky (certainly not in small stakes BHs) or even bad players on any site will be playing anywhere near a 'correct' range to shove/call. For instance, if someone is shoving 10xBB on the button and they're doing it as wide as they 'should' be, and we're in the BB then we can/should call with say A8o.... BUT very few players will call that wide (unless they're just the bounty maniacs) and very few players shove as wide as they 'should' anyway, so on Sky calling off a 10xBB shove in that spot is gonna be really bad most of the time. Obv this is all just about adjusting... one player might shove in that spot and we know it's an easy call with KQ, another player might shove that spot and it's the easiest fold in the world with AT. Generally speaking though (apart from bounty chasers) people don't shove wide enough and don't call light enough.
So in summary, I think they're both bad shoves cos if we shoev 20xBB with AK, then we get LOADS of worse hands to fold that would have called a raise that we have crushed like AQ, AJ, AT, A9, KQ, KJ, KT. When we get called we'll be flipping practically 100% of the time and we're the one who is the underdog all so we can stael 1.5xBB.
Likewise with A4, if we get called, it'll never be by KQ, it'll be by bigger aces (really bad) or PPs where we have 1 overcard (really bad). I'd rather shove 9Ts in the A4 spot (but I wouldn't be open shoving that either).
For this reason, I think minraising is miles better because we still have the chance of stealing the 1.5xBB which I think will happen often, we can minraise/fold and still have a stack to do something with, we can take it away on loads of flops if we do get called cos most will be playing fit or fold at this stage.
Easy shove with the A4. Pick up the blinds 90%. The other 10% im happy to gamble for my tournament life on a suited ace as people are not a nitty as you think they are! Youve got plenty of opportunites to hit a straight and flush if they do have you dominated. Play for the win not just survival.
2. Why can't we? I can think of a ton of players names that come to mind (I won't name them) where we can min-raise there and know for an absolute fact that if they shove on us, we are crushed cos they will never be bluffing and never shoving a worse hand for value.
If we minraise/fold, we have 14xBB which is still plenty with no antes, obv we want to double but that doesn't mean we need to just gamble
3. We don't have to hit a flop to win a hand. Most people in the deep stages are playing pretty fit or fold postflop and don't wanna commit too many chips postflop without a made hand or at least a decent draw, seen as the majority of the time any given hand will miss the flop, we can take it down there.
We'd never let ourselves get to 6xBB (or at least we shouldn't) but we're only paying 1.5xBB per orbit and have 16xBB, so that's 6 orbits we have before we'd get that low and I'd be very shocked if a better spot didn't come up in the next 6 orbits. Does depend on the table obv.