Is this the correct play by either of us?

profman15

Hi guys

Am i wrong to think that my opponent should not be rer or even calling tbh considering my strong raise. If he'd say, just called i've always judged whether to call in his position based on pot odds and the implied odds which were both in my favour here, i think. I was thinking oh dear is it a set and was pleased that it was only a flush draw. 

I certainly don't think we were at any desperate stage(he still has >15bb's after bet on flop) and he knew i wasn't folding his ai surely. I've put this hand up as this player seems solid and i wonder whether i've had the wrong idea all this time.

@Small blind 150.00150.005482.50Any2SuitedBig blind 300.00450.0013210.00 Your hole cardsA6   akaArcheFold    SSM_106Fold    briannCall 300.00750.0013957.50_kagawa_Fold    profman15Call 300.001050.0010365.00trebor76Fold    GELDY@Call150.001200.005332.50Any2SuitedCheck    Flop  JA6@Show4Q   profman15ShowA6   Turn  10   River  8@WinFlush to the Ace12465.00 12465.00

jams88

I think a fold is optimal pre but you played the flop perfect imo. Opponant shouldnt be doing this but hey thats good for us 2/3

GELDY

Yeah

fold or raise pre

limp is not good and is the only reason his poor play on the flop caused you a problem

profman15

HI G

Tbh  i didn't want to use 10% of my stack trying to force out utg+3. My aim here was only to see if i could get a flush draw on flop and the pot odds to call a bet on the flop to catch my flush. 10 hdd and with critical stacks behind a resteal of 15bb's was going to get a fold from me. Consequently my aim was to see a cheap flop and no more. 

Lambert180

If you find yourself in a situation like this where you think 'urgh I don't really want to raise', that usually means it's a fold. If the hand isn't strong enough, don't try to take the middle ground and limp along... usually.

After that, played perfect, he made a bad call and you just got unlucky.

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Is this the correct play by either of us?:

HI G Tbh  i didn't want to use 10% of my stack trying to force out utg+3. My aim here was only to see if i could get a flush draw on flop and the pot odds to call a bet on the flop to catch my flush. 10 hdd and with critical stacks behind a resteal of 15bb's was going to get a fold from me. Consequently my aim was to see a cheap flop and no more. 
Posted by profman15

So your aim was to see a cheap flop and no more? You weren't bothered about winning the pot then?

That might sound flippant, but you are getting your true aim of winning the pot confused with the idea that you want to see a cheap, multi-way flop. That's not good thinking.

There are a lot of problems with limping. The two worst problems are that i) you miss an opportunity to win the pots easily pre-flop with a raise and ii) you have big reverse implied odds for hitting the flop. By that I mean that when you hit an Ace, you can lose a lot to a better Ace. I realise that you say you want to hit a flush draw, but the fact is that if you get it in post-flop with a bare flush draw, you're still getting it in with the worse hand.

There are other reasons not to limp and this table is a great example. Look who is sat on the Button. It's Geldy, someone we both know is very capable. Now, I don't know if this is Geldy's style or not but I can tell you that when I'm sat on the button, looking at two limpers, I'm probably raising about 70% of the time. There's free money out there and I'm going to claim it. So when you limp along with a decent player sat behind you, you're not even going to get that "cheap" flop very often.

I'm not going to go to any greater lengths about this because I know you've heard most of it before. As has been said, you should be raising or folding here.

I personally would consider it a little bit nitty to just fold here, in late position with one limper.

profman15

In Response to Re: Is this the correct play by either of us?:

In Response to Re: Is this the correct play by either of us? : So your aim was to see a cheap flop and no more? You weren't bothered about winning the pot then? That might sound flippant, but you are getting your true aim of winning the pot confused with the idea that you want to see a cheap, multi-way flop. That's not good thinking. There are a lot of problems with limping. The two worst problems are that i) you miss an opportunity to win the pots easily pre-flop with a raise and ii) you have big reverse implied odds for hitting the flop. By that I mean that when you hit an Ace, you can lose a lot to a better Ace. I realise that you say you want to hit a flush draw, but the fact is that if you get it in post-flop with a bare flush draw, you're still getting it in with the worse hand. There are other reasons not to limp and this table is a great example. Look who is sat on the Button. It's Geldy, someone we both know is very capable. Now, I don't know if this is Geldy's style or not but I can tell you that when I'm sat on the button, looking at two limpers, I'm probably raising about 70% of the time. There's free money out there and I'm going to claim it. So when you limp along with a decent player sat behind you, you're not even going to get that "cheap" flop very often. I'm not going to go to any greater lengths about this because I know you've heard most of it before. As has been said, you should be raising or folding here. I personally would consider it a little bit nitty to just fold here, in late position with one limper.
Posted by BorinLoner

Cheers Borin

Two points really. One, Geldy, a player i know as solid,  wasn't at the table all night and was being blinded out and two, the table had hit a stage where the play was rather conservative and limps were getting through to see a flop so i had considered the situation from that point of viewand it may be that i'd be in position and better able to assess on the flop. I don't usually limp at all. 

What are your thoughts of his pot odds etc to call or as he did rer ai? Is this correct from the pot odds aspect as i've tended to think a +2/3 pot raise should price you out of trying to call to hit your flush draw? The implied odds are too small considering my stack size surely. Yes/no? 

tbh ...in my position i would not really fancy raising to try to steal with this hand. Ace,weak kicker is too vulnerable. I was really looking for a nice two pr hand or that flush draw to continue as i'd expect a better ace to be amongst the hand but consequently still come along. Ty for your pointers. The Orfordable is an enjoyable mtt but there does seem to be various periods of limps in then others of raise and reraises. I got to 11th i think but my play was pretty tight admittedly unless i'd got a read from previous hands, Enjoyable none the less but certainly a different approach is needed.

offshoot

If the table is playing conservatively then all the more reason to raise. Looking for "a nice two pr hand or that flush draw to continue" is putting all your eggs in the "need to get lucky" basket. Its much more preferable to try and win the pot with your own aggressive play.

calcalfold

In Response to Re: Is this the correct play by either of us?:

If you find yourself in a situation like this where you think 'urgh I don't really want to raise', that usually means it's a fold. If the hand isn't strong enough, don't try to take the middle ground and limp along... usually. After that, played perfect, he made a bad call and you just got unlucky.
Posted by Lambert180

I dont think he made a "bad call".

To fold your remaining 1700 stack when faced with a 10,000+ pot and reasonable equity would be horribad.

Villain thought hero might fold, and if hero didnt fold villain still had the draw.

Hero read villain better than villain read hero.

GELDY

Sorry I wasn't there btw

was hoping to join late

but family circumstances prevented it

Lambert180

Sorry it wasn't actually a call, it was an all-in, but it might as well be a call cos Hero can never fold as you say.

The bad 'call' (I meant all in lol) I meant was made by the villian. He's got like 0% FE so is just relying on his equity and he's gonna be looking at 1in3 to hit his flush as his only way of winning, nevermind the fact if he's against a set/2pr then some flush outs are dead.

Villian should 100% just save his 4.7k and fold once Hero raises the flop.