Pocket queens mtt, 20 bigs

LARSON7

I was playing a bh last night, pocket q s blinds  150 300. I had 6 k. There're was a limper utg.

I shoved. Was happy with a call if folded I've added 750 2 my stack. Just wondering what others think.

If u 

Raise, what do you raise 2 ? 

Lambert180

I probably raise to about 950 ish and obv calling a shove, I think this is a better line than just shoving. I know people are donkeys in BHs sometimes and will call shoves with junk but they call just standard raises wider...  "try and flop a pair and get that bounty"

Just think we get more value from a standard raise and BH crazies will still probably reship over you with stuff like AJ, KQ, blah blah anyway.

CraigSG1

I raise to about 1000 and obv call shove and if called just shove MOST flops. 

DeucesLive

Yeah, I go with a meaty raise to around 900-1000, calling any shove. If the board comes down AKx, I shut down. A sole A or K, and it's time to re-evaluate. If you have position, great- out of position not so good. Dunno if check/calling or bet/folding is the best option in that spot, probably bet/folding if it's a dry-ish board. Any J high or lower board and I get my stack in as fast as possible.

Open shoving QQ with 20bbs is awful, sorry. You're missing all kinds of value.

Batkin88

Depends on the limpers stack size, if he is similar or higher than yours then raise to 850 - 1050 ish, if he is lower then just shove. Also depends on whether you have a big stack in the blinds in a BH. Example if limper is a shorty then by raising you may find that the big stack in the blinds calls to try and induce the limper just to call behind and give him a chance at 2 bounties.

NColley

Ya, you didn't mention any of the rest of the tables stack sizes.

Don't mind a ship if everyone is around 10bb or less but if you've got some deeper oppos you want them to be 3bet shipping you or making mistakes by flatting with hands such as 55, 86s, A rags, ect. Making it 3x after a limp is pretty standard with no antes especially if you're just opening for a minraise now.

In terms of post flop, just make a small cbet on dry flops (less then half pot) and you can often induce some spewage. 

LARSON7

In Response to Re: Pocket queens mtt, 20 bigs:

Yeah, I go with a meaty raise to around 900-1000, calling any shove. If the board comes down AKx, I shut down. A sole A or K, and it's time to re-evaluate. If you have position, great- out of position not so good. Dunno if check/calling or bet/folding is the best option in that spot, probably bet/folding if it's a dry-ish board. Any J high or lower board and I get my stack in as fast as possible. Open shoving QQ with 20bbs is awful, sorry. You're missing all kinds of value.
Posted by DeucesLive

Not at all Deuces, that's why i was asking. I knew it wasn't the best option, just the easiest option.

Sent my original post from iphone, i'll post the hand up.

VickiC	Small blind		150.00	150.00	8990.00
BMRJ	Big blind		300.00	450.00	4790.00
	Your hole cards	Q Q
59	Call		300.00	750.00	16700.00
snellie40	Fold
LARSON7	All-in		6492.50	7242.50	0.00
bennett042	Fold
VickiC	Fold
BMRJ	Fold
59	Fold
LARSON7	Muck
LARSON7	Win		1050.00		1050.00
LARSON7	Return		6192.50

LARSON7

I struggle sometimes playing with not many big blinds.

In cash you have 100 plus big blinds most times, which is really easy to play any hand.

In MTTs later on it's difficult sometimes to know what to do.

Since i started the MTT thread on the main forum, pretty much i like to keep all my bets the same size. At this stage i would normally always be min raising.

I hated the idea of min raising, having the limper coming along for  aride, and the BB (maybe sb too) thinking they were priced in.

If i had raised this hand to 950-1000 (which sounds spot on)

On a dry board no more than J High, I would be betting to get it in on the turn.

If it was a wetboard, flushing / straight still Jack high or less i'd open shove the flop.

If it's Ace or King high, it's a lot more difficult.

LARSON7

Also, what is fold equity?

What i mean is, if i go to 1k, i've got 5.5 behind, the pot would be 2750 (if 1 caller).

Say the flop comes down King or Ace High and i have position.

If it is checked to me and i bet say 1400, leavig me with 4k and pot of 4150, and oppo open shoves, am i forced to call because of what's in the middle? (i only have a pot sized bet behind)

If i bet 1400 and it is called the pot is now 5.5k, with 4k behind. If it's checked again on the turn do we hope for a cheap show down, or just get it in?

I know reads will come into it just wondering from a maths perspective. 

Lambert180

Well FE is about how often a bet we make will make them fold. We aren't really looking at FE at all in this scenario tho because either we won't want them to fold, or they've outdrawn us and have paired their A or K, or made 2pr, then they're not folding anyway.

Don't just overshove flops cos you're scared of getting outdrawn, you just make it less likely you'll get called by worse hands and more likely you're inviting someone to stack you when they have a better hand. We should adjust our bet size according to board texture and by all means bet slightly more on a wet flop than you would on a dry one, but don't just overbet shove.

Say it comes 47J with 2 hearts, we can overbet shove and make them fold their FDs, A7, K7, 88-TT etc OR we can put in a decent bet and they call with their FDs A7, K7, 88-TT even though the odds are massively in our favour that their not gonna catch up by the turn. Don't be scared of being outdrawn, sometimes it will happen, but if you're constantly scared of it you'll lose SO much value by scaring people off when we want them to try to draw.

If it comes K-high or A-high and it's otherwise fairly dry like A69r or K86r then I'd cbet and as you say check the turn and hope for a cheap showdown. We're not committed at all if we have 4k behind at 150/300, if we think he'll only bet the turn or river with the A or K, then it's annoying but just fold.... better to have 15xBB than be stubborn and have none.

Batkin88

If BMRJ was a looney I would flat with queens here .... just saying

With limpers stack I think raising to 1k is good here

hhyftrftdr

We have position as well! Great spot to raise and punish that limper. Limper is reasonably deep so can peel quite wide, happy days.

Hand him the rope.

BigHawk89

20 bigs is PLENTY in sky tournaments because there is no antes in play. Really dont like the shove your just giving people a chance to make folds behind you with hands like A10, AJ, AQ and pocket pairs.

jimb0d1

Never shoving here unless there is a super-shorty coming in with a big headprize behind. I like a minraise.

Batkin88

Larson have you heard of M ratio?? It will help with your blind play late on in tourneys