if not OTB should i just toss hand such as this

craigcu12 · August 2013

i am not complaining about the caller at all it was ok what i am mainly wondering is with these KQo KJo A10s K10s it is very hard to really know what to do if i miss especially when i know their is a big chance of any A calling early in MTT.

Flop
lufc333	Small blind		10.00	10.00	2000.00
thewing	Big blind		20.00	30.00	1980.00
	Your hole cards	10 K
craigcu12	Raise		60.00	90.00	1940.00
CLAREYS	Call		60.00	150.00	1940.00
dragon2626	Fold
x	Call		60.00	210.00	1930.00
lufc333	Fold
thewing	Fold
		6 5 A
craigcu12	Bet		210.00	420.00	1730.00
CLAREYS	Fold
x	Raise		420.00	840.00	1510.00
craigcu12	All-in		1730.00	2570.00	0.00
x	All-in		1510.00	4080.00	0.00
craigcu12	Unmatched bet		10.00	4070.00	10.00
craigcu12	Show	10 K
x	Show	J A
Turn
		J
River
		3
x	Win	Two Pairs, Aces and Jacks	4070.00		4070.00

Flop
HenryW	Small blind		30.00	30.00	3165.00
GREENIENO_	Big blind		60.00	90.00	1860.00
	Your hole cards	Q K
HONEYBUSH	Fold
craigcu12	Raise		180.00	270.00	1450.00
josh58411	Fold
squeak13	Call		180.00	450.00	1200.00
HenryW	Fold
GREENIENO_	Fold
		4 J 7
craigcu12	Check
squeak13	Bet		450.00	900.00	750.00
craigcu12	Call		450.00	1350.00	1000.00
Turn
		6
craigcu12	All-in		1000.00	2350.00	0.00
squeak13	All-in		750.00	3100.00	0.00
craigcu12	Unmatched bet		250.00	2850.00	250.00
craigcu12	Show	Q K
squeak13	Show	6 A
River
		4
squeak13	Win	Two Pairs, 6s and 4s	2850.00		2850.00

my question is. if my hand is not paired and i am not the cut off or button would it be best to fold even hand that is not a pair AK or AQ and if suited maybe KQs and AJs or should i even fold them when not in the CO or button.

another question i have relating to this one

Flop
regbloke69	Small blind		15.00	15.00	1955.00
craigcu12	Big blind		30.00	45.00	1775.00
	Your hole cards	A K
BURNShurtz	Fold
RichardSav	Call		30.00	75.00	2105.00
jod67	Call		30.00	105.00	2180.00
fizzy32	Call		30.00	135.00	3925.00
regbloke69	Raise		75.00	210.00	1880.00
craigcu12	Call		60.00	270.00	1715.00
RichardSav	Call		60.00	330.00	2045.00
jod67	Call		60.00	390.00	2120.00
fizzy32	Call		60.00	450.00	3865.00
		5 A A
regbloke69	Check
craigcu12	Check
RichardSav	Check
jod67	Check
fizzy32	Check
Turn
		2
regbloke69	Bet		60.00	510.00	1820.00
craigcu12	Call		60.00	570.00	1655.00
RichardSav	Fold
jod67	Fold
fizzy32	Call		60.00	630.00	3805.00
River
		J
regbloke69	Check
craigcu12	Check
fizzy32	Bet		315.00	945.00	3490.00
regbloke69	Call		315.00	1260.00	1505.00
craigcu12	Call		315.00	1575.00	1340.00
fizzy32	Show	K 7
regbloke69	Muck	J Q
craigcu12	Muck	A K
fizzy32	Win	Flush to the Ace	1575.00		5065.00

now the board was a very dry flop so i decided to give them a free card thinking i will scare them all but the trouble was it allowed the flush to get just what he wanted. so what i was wondering is should i even be giving free cards when my hand is anything less than a nut flush

gazza127 · August 2013

Hand 1 - I have no issue with - although pot bet might be a bit too aggro.
Hand 2 - just check/give up to that size bet on the flop. Alternatively bet/fold. You've missed. No shame in folding and looking for a better spot.
Hand 3 - you should probably raise pre to like 170. AK is a decent hand... Dont let rubbish into the hand for cheap and let them donk you out with 84 when the flop comes A84. Then bet the flop. Bet the turn. If oppo pops up with AQ instead of QJ then youve missed out on a whoooole tonne of value. Bet your hands and make people pay for draws. If you take the check route on the flop you have to raise turn to like 450 to look to get it in on the river.

GELDY · August 2013

hand 1

yeah - raising these utg are very difficult to play oop against likely callers in the early levels unless you hit hard. and when you do you might still only be 50/50.

gazza127 · August 2013

And in answer to your question im fine with playing these hands whilst quite deep oop. As long as you dont get too attached to a single pair when the flop comes down its fine. You cant always wait for PP or AK

Jac35 · August 2013

From these 3 hands it seems pretty clear that you're playing in a classic back to front way.

First 2 hands you've missed and yet you get way too aggro.

The 3rd hand when you have smashed the flop you're playing passively because you want to get paid and get tripped up.

First hand - why not pot control? If you think he likely has the ace, then you know its going to be hard to get him off the hand.

It's early on in the tourney, check it back and give yourself a chance to make your hand cheaply.

Second hand - just fold

Third hand - if I'm not betting the flop, once I'm getting action on the turn, I'm raising. When we get to the river all we should have now is a bluff catcher. Why are we flitting and going 6 way to the flop with ak?.

..

To answer your other question. Yes, off course we should be playing these hands on a six max table.

craigcu12 · August 2013

so with these KQ KJ or K10s QJs a raise oop preflop is ok and I should be thinking more about what the flop brings and how many others called before making a decision.

in regards to the AK I guess I should be always making a bet when flops like that come.

gazza127 · August 2013

In Response to Re: if not OTB should i just toss hand such as this:

so with these KQ KJ or K10s QJs a raise oop preflop is ok and I should be thinking more about what the flop brings and how many others called before making a decision. in regards to the AK I guess I should be always making a bet when flops like that come.
Posted by craigcu12

Yep... You can easily raise those hands oop. If the flop comes down A82, you can just get away light. Only issue is if youve raised QJ and get called by KJ, and the flop comes J high... so its important to take into account table dynamic and not shovel all your chips in with top pair weak kicker. You dont have to win every pot... Just make sure that when you think your ahead, you bet... if youve got total air theres no shame in b/f or even c/f.

CraigSG1 · August 2013

In Response to Re: if not OTB should i just toss hand such as this:

From these 3 hands it seems pretty clear that you're playing in a classic back to front way. First 2 hands you've missed and yet you get way too aggro. The 3rd hand when you have smashed the flop you're playing passively because you want to get paid and get tripped up. First hand - why not pot control? If you think he likely has the ace, then you know its going to be hard to get him off the hand. It's early on in the tourney, check it back and give yourself a chance to make your hand cheaply. Second hand - just fold Third hand - if I'm not betting the flop, once I'm getting action on the turn, I'm raising. When we get to the river all we should have now is a bluff catcher. Why are we flitting and going 6 way to the flop with ak?. .. To answer your other question. Yes, off course we should be playing these hands on a six max table.
Posted by Jac35

+1!

In relation to 3rd hand (absoloutley reraise this BIG pre. Its already a nice pot to take down and you want max 2 callers) when we hit this flop as hard as we do, with so many people in the hand you have to bet this 100%. We are getting called by another A, many PP and also a lot of junk too. Only reason to slow play would be against super aggro players or heads up.

Batkin88 · August 2013

Hand 1 early in a MTT you should be exercising pot control, this move would be ok to do in the later stages but not this early.

Hand 2: This is a classic leak for loads of MTT players, you open he donks and you call 30% of your stack off with K high? Look at your stack and realise the impact on your stack by just calling here. Loads of Ace high hands are donk leading here as they will feel they are ahead as the board is paired (another leak IMO) and finally no hand with a jack in it is open jamming that turn to a player who is showing aggression. Just fold and move on, if you want to get frisky then shove the flop but I wouldn't recommend it! This hand is slightly different if in a deepstack and playing 200bigs+ but not very different.

Hand 3: Fine not 3 betting pre if you are happy to fold exactly that river. However as you are so aggro you should be taking advantage of your image and raising pre to like 250 and then you can delay c-bet at most but realistically you can c-bet that flop and get calls from PP's and some optimistic king high holders!

chicknMelt · August 2013

Craig, it seems like your general question is how to play premium and good hands that aren't PPs... I agree with most peoples comments on how you played the hands btw.

as a general rule, i would suggest the following to start with as a basic guide(for 6-max).... im sure there will be people that disagree tho

AK - Raise from ny position, 3bet any position raiser.

AQ - raise from any position, 3bet any raiser that isnt utg.

AJ - raise from any position, 3bet late position raisers.

AT - raise from any position, fold to 3bets. 3bet button raises.

A9-A2 suited - raise from any position, fold if someone else has raised, fold to 3bets.

KQs raise from any position, 3bet late position raisers.

other broadway cards are also worth raising, but you should generally fold if someone else has raised and if its not a good 3bet spot.

notice how I havent recommended that you ever "just call". There are certain situations when its right, but it should be the last option you consider. This is important because it means you will have the betting lead for most hands you enter. Why is the betting lead important? - most people (your opponent) will play ABC poker when they dont have the betting lead - fold when they miss and continue when they have hit + if there are lots of people in the pot you narrow the field and play against 1 or 2. If you are playing against 1 or 2 people that are playing ABC poker, you should be able to win alot of pots without hands!... now for the next bit...

you need to put your opponents on a "range" of cards. ask yourself what hands would this person likely play like this preflop form the position they are in. things to think about are:

-How often do they call

-How often do they raise

-what hands have you seen them play before

-are they likely to be tilting

for example, if a tight player raises from UTG, they likely have a premium hand, and their range will look something like AK, AQ, AJ, AA-88.

whereas if a fairly loose/agro player raises from the button, their range is probably something like AKs- J7s, AKo-J9o, T9-45s, T9-67o, AA-22.

once you have their rough range and you have the flop you can judge how well the flop has hit their range, also think about how your opponent thinks the flop has helped you (or not). This should help alot on deciding whether to cbet or not.

for example:

you are in the BB with KQs, a loose/agro player raises from the button and you 3bet him, he calls.

you are both deep stacked so you guess his 3bet calling range is AQ, AJ, ATs, KQ, 99-66, KQs-JTs. You can prbably eliminate the rest because they would either fold or 4bet you. (notice how 3betting helps alot to define your opponents range - this is one of the reasons pro's do it alot)

the flop is A94 rainbow. you have completely whiffed the board, but as you have the betting lead, and there are lots of hands in your opponents range that hate that flop too. Add to that the fact that they are likely to play ABC, and that they think an A makes up a big part of YOUR range and it becomes an easy cbet!

if they call/raise, you can use that information to narrow their range further. by the river, if it gets that far, you should have a very good idea of what they have.

Hope that helps with how you should be thinking

hhyftrftdr · August 2013

In Response to Re: if not OTB should i just toss hand such as this:

Craig, it seems like your general question is how to play premium and good hands that aren't PPs... I agree with most peoples comments on how you played the hands btw. as a general rule, i would suggest the following to start with as a basic guide(for 6-max).... im sure there will be people that disagree tho AK - Raise from ny position, 3bet any position raiser. AQ - raise from any position, 3bet any raiser that isnt utg. AJ - raise from any position, 3bet late position raisers. AT - raise from any position, fold to 3bets. 3bet button raises. A9-A2 suited - raise from any position, fold if someone else has raised, fold to 3bets. KQs raise from any position, 3bet late position raisers. other broadway cards are also worth raising, but you should generally fold if someone else has raised and if its not a good 3bet spot. notice how I havent recommended that you ever "just call". There are certain situations when its right, but it should be the last option you consider. This is important because it means you will have the betting lead for most hands you enter. Why is the betting lead important? - most people (your opponent) will play ABC poker when they dont have the betting lead - fold when they miss and continue when they have hit + if there are lots of people in the pot you narrow the field and play against 1 or 2. If you are playing against 1 or 2 people that are playing ABC poker, you should be able to win alot of pots without hands!... now for the next bit... you need to put your opponents on a "range" of cards. ask yourself what hands would this person likely play like this preflop form the position they are in. things to think about are: -How often do they call -How often do they raise -what hands have you seen them play before -are they likely to be tilting for example, if a tight player raises from UTG, they likely have a premium hand, and their range will look something like AK, AQ, AJ, AA-88. whereas if a fairly loose/agro player raises from the button, their range is probably something like AKs- J7s, AKo-J9o, T9-45s, T9-67o, AA-22. once you have their rough range and you have the flop you can judge how well the flop has hit their range, also think about how your opponent thinks the flop has helped you (or not). This should help alot on deciding whether to cbet or not. for example: you are in the BB with KQs, a loose/agro player raises from the button and you 3bet him, he calls. you are both deep stacked so you guess his 3bet calling range is AQ, AJ, ATs, KQ, 99-66, KQs-JTs. You can prbably eliminate the rest because they would either fold or 4bet you. (notice how 3betting helps alot to define your opponents range - this is one of the reasons pro's do it alot) the flop is A94 rainbow. you have completely whiffed the board, but as you have the betting lead, and there are lots of hands in your opponents range that hate that flop too. Add to that the fact that they are likely to play ABC, and that they think an A makes up a big part of YOUR range and it becomes an easy cbet! if they call/raise, you can use that information to narrow their range further. by the river, if it gets that far, you should have a very good idea of what they have. Hope that helps with how you should be thinking
Posted by chicknMelt

Just one look at the 'tournament results' thread will show you that this in info you need to absorb, Craig. Cracking post Mr Melt.

chicknMelt · August 2013

why thankyou mr random letters for a name

craigcu12 · August 2013

thanks for the help with these hands and TBH i have seen a big improvement in my early stages of MTTs and have started to check the flops more often with my hands that i missed unless i am heads up or hold maybe AK or AQ as they are still will have a good chance of being ahead.

F_Ivanovic · August 2013

If I'm being harsh but honest, all 3 hands are a disaster in some way or other.

Hand 1: No need to bet so big on the flop. Apart from the flush draw, it's pretty dry and unless someone has an A/set/78 they're not going to continue to a 1/2-3/4 flop bet. If we get min-raised now, we have more manouverabilty and can call to try and hit our flush. As it is, we decide to 3bet get it in, which is pretty bad. Since there is an A on board we likely only have our flush outs. Villain min-r our pot bet and is likely never folding if we get it in, so why would we want to get it in now against a range we're an underdog against? I'm just calling and then folding OTT unless they bet really small (and give us odds to call)

Hand 2: Great flop to c-bet here but when we decide to c/back we should be folding against a pot sized bet. On the turn our hand doesn't look like anything so unless villain had nothing on the flop, then he's never folding.

Hand 3: I can accept flatting pre and slow playing flop but by the turn you NEED to be building the pot. Not raising to the small bet is criminal. River call is fine I guess. Good pot odds and probably up against a flush a bit but that can happen when you decide to slow play 2 streets!

if not OTB should i just toss hand such as this

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