Check Turn? Bad in your opinion?

LARSON7

If oppo has King which i cant be sure of, he could pretty much have any2.

Check the turn for deception, lookin for king to bet.

Value bet river, would you just shove?

LARSON7	Small blind		500.00	500.00	44830.00
3barrels	Big blind		1000.00	1500.00	51602.50
	Your hole cards	J 2
mlcJKA	Fold
IAMBLUFFIN	Fold
PipeBender	Fold
nuttyboy1	Fold
LARSON7	Raise		1500.00	3000.00	43330.00
3barrels	Call		1000.00	4000.00	50602.50
Flop
		2 K 2
LARSON7	Bet		3000.00	7000.00	40330.00
3barrels	Call		3000.00	10000.00	47602.50
Turn
		2
LARSON7	Check
3barrels	Check
River
		8
LARSON7	Bet		17000.00	27000.00	23330.00
3barrels	Call		17000.00	44000.00	30602.50
LARSON7	Show	J 2
3barrels	Show	Q K
LARSON7	Win	Four 2s	44000.00

DOHHHHHHH

decent line imo.

Like river size as played.

craigcu12

they say you should give a free card if you have quads but the quads that I think they talking about are when your hand was paired preflop.

on the turn just bet it like you would with most pairs

chicknMelt

bet the turn, if you were bluffing you would keep betting + if they hve a king you get paid max.

LARSON7

Having a look at this now.

I quite quite like this line, opponent could have so much more than a K here.

Been results orientated, knowing what his hand was, i would have had his stack. On the turn, i quite like the check. It lets him improve, if he hasn't got the K.

Most players are betting there King there. On the river, it looks so bluffy, was a very nice (just) call by my opponent. Quite a lot of hands are calling here, including Ace x type hands.

The line i took, most players are going bust with their king here.

gruntex

why are you raising j2 out of position in the 1st place? just throw it away pre imo, if he re raises here you don't like it, if he calls your raise you dont want to be out of position with this hand, but seen as you played it, i like the way you played it after the flop

Batkin88

If he is calling the flop he is 100% calling the turn with what looks like the best card in the deck for him even if he holds a small PP. If he holds a mid pair and the river comes a T,J,Q,K,A you lose value. I think this is a bet bet overshove spot for you.

However love the river bet as played nh!

F_Ivanovic

Am I the only one that doesn't lke the river bet given how we played the turn? I mean it looks like we're checking the turn because we think our opponent is unlikely to have a K (otherwise, we would surely bet it as he's never folding) Yet you decide to overbet river 1.7x where only a K is calling. Given villain checked the turn, he probably doesn't have a K too often. Had you bet the turn (almost certainly the best play) then you can definitely overshove river as villain has a K much more often (although c/r probably works even better as villain will bet a K himself anyway)

As played though, I would much prefer a small bet or a c/r. A small bet does a few things; it encourages villain to raise with Kx (a normal sized bet, or overbet like you did will make them just call) and it encourages them to possibly turn a flush draw into a bluff. It also gets them to call with their weaker pairs which might fold to a bigger bet. A c/r allows them again to bluff, but it also means we're super likely to get stacks in if villain did slowplay Kx OTT. It does allow them to get cheap showdown with smaller pairs though. So I think I would go for a smaller bet most often.

Also, not a fan of the large bet otf. It's a super dry board and I'd be betting 1/2 pot or less with all of my range.

hhyftrftdr

Betting the turn sets you up to (overbet) jam the river.

If we are in position, we can play it a little bit sneakier. As it is, we should be looking for 3 streets of value, and ultimately a full double up by the river. We let the villain off the hook.

grantorino

Reads pls

Bet turn for value. Checking cos he might bet a K makes no sense to me

River if you are going to go that big I think u should just jam, doubt villains calling range is much different

F_Ivanovic

Disagree that villains calling range won't be different with a jam compared to this overbet. He might fold his Kx to a jam if he's good because he knows that at best he's chopping the pot, and at worst he runs into 88, AA or quads and is out the tournament. So whilst I don't like river overbet given how we played the turn, I think it's definitely the best overbet size he could make to guarantee a call from villain.

DrSharp

I am a fan of bet bet shove.

The % chance of him having a king gives a far greater expected value than keeping his bluffs and drawing hands in.

LARSON7

Ivanovic are you folding the 5th nuts?

To a bet turn, ship river?

--------------------------------

It's a tough one, if we bet the turn it's hard to get called by most of opponents range here.

In checking the turn, it allows opponent to catch up with something on the river.

Grantarino "Checking cos he might bet a K makes no sense to me"

Grantarino, i said you would expect a King to bet the turn.

F_Ivanovic

When talking about the best hand, it's all relative. Sure, the 5th nuts sounds good but when your opponent can only ever be shoving the same hand or better and it's for our tournament life, I'm definitely going to strongly consider folding. I'd probably be disappointed in myself if I did call!

Also I hear you with your thoughts on why you checked the turn - that is, that you didn't think your opponent had a K (although him calling 3/4 on flop might indicate he does have a K quite often) but again, if you wanted to let your opponent catch up because you think he didn't have a K, then you shouldn't be overbetting this river as without a K he's never calling.

88MickyC

it seems a lot has already been said on this hand, but i'm bored and can't get to kip so i'll throw my two cents in too...

I dont really get the chance to play as often as i would like but i'm not really a fan of being "results orientated".  I would rather decide if i made the correct decision in the long term and in my opinion, i would be folding this hand pre-flop.

although, as you've played the hand and on this board, i would be betting every street because there are so many hands that your opponent would be calling with, i.e. any King, any pocket pair and maybe some Ace highs so i would say when you have it, try and get the most out of the hand and bet every street with a shove on the river.

OR.... 

fold pre-flop lol

offshoot

Sure a king might bet the turn and draws mgiht fold but what about 33-QQ? How do you get value from those hands by checking the turn? Surely they all check back? This guy even checked back a king. I doubt people are folding 99 or TT to a second barrell here.

The overbet on the river is surely a sign you messed up somewhere else in the hand? Why are you overbetting when villain's range is pretty weak?

Why not check flop instead of checking turn?

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: Check Turn? Bad in your opinion?:

Ivanovic are you folding the 5th nuts? To a bet turn, ship river? -------------------------------- It's a tough one, if we bet the turn it's hard to get called by most of opponents range here. In checking the turn, it allows opponent to catch up with something on the river. Grantarino "Checking cos he might bet a K makes no sense to me" Grantarino, i said you would expect a King to bet the turn.
Posted by LARSON7

In checking the turn, it means you've missed out on a street of value. Nothing else. Plus I think your line looks even more suspicious (raise, bet, check, overbet).

As I said before, if we swapped position with the villain but all the action was the same; IE he raises pre, bets flop, we call, and he checks to us on the turn, then a check back here isn't a bad move. But OOP we should keep betting and be looking to have his stack, or close enough, by the river.

hhyftrftdr

Plus the board isn't really a 'catch up' board. There are 2 hearts, but thats it. Think about the action; you raised pre, he called. You then bet a 2 K 2 board, and he calls. That there should narrow his range right down. He could have 2 hearts, but more likely holdings are Ax, a K or a pocket pair. So when the 2 comes on the turn, we should be betting again to get value from these hands above. 

Say for example, we have 77 in the SB and raise. Flop comes 7c 8c 9d. We bet, he calls. Turn is 9c, giving us the house, and putting 3 of the same suit on board. I would still bet more often than not, but this is a board texture where someone could feasibly 'catch up' with a certain river card and potentially stack off. If someone has a 10 or a 6, or the Ac, then letting them see the river for free to hit their straight/flush could work for us. 

A board reading 2 K 2 2, I don't really see where a villain can catch up. They either have a K or a PP and thus will pay you off, or they have nothing and ain't gonna put another chip in the pot. From the action, the former is much more likely than the latter.

I'm hungry after all this.

LARSON7

Thanks everyone, was an interesting hand.

Glad to get everyone's opinions, and like the idea of betting Turn, shipping river.