...I think that without being able to see what the others have on the flop, maybe just a call is the right move - or maybe a min raise as calcafold has said would be best. At the time, I obviously will have wanted to keep both customers so saw the call as the right move - which is what I think hhyftrftdr is getting at. In fact, after reading over Larson's post again I now think a raise would be the right move.
I guess that's one of the brilliant things about poker, there's never a 100% perfect way to play a hand! Also, thanks for the tip regarding P2's min raise pre, Larson. I'll keep a look out for that on the 4NL tables.
BorinLoner, thanks for the time put in to your post! I understand odds and implied odds when they're explained but at the table, I have no idea. I obviously play by odds, but only through a gut feeling (if that makes sense) - there's no maths involved in my decisions. Should I be looking to learn this sort of stuff or does it not make that much of a difference? Obviously it's good to know and understand, but is it something I should be looking into now, rather than later?... Posted by ItzJosh
I prefer flatting the flop because we know that a spade is only going to hit on the turn a little over one time in five. We shouldn't really be that afraid of the spade, as Harry(HHYFTRFTDR) has said, because our opponents' ranges don't contain that many hands with two spades. The 3-better is likely to have a big pair or an AK, AQ type hand and the other villain can have quite a lot of different hands. Sometimes they'll have a flush draw but most of the time they don't.
So the biggest problem with a spade potentially hitting the turn is that it might scare our opponents out of paying us off. However, we know the turn is going to be something other than a spade nearly four times out of five. I think it's better to take that chance here, especially because we know we only need one more bet to get it all-in, because the stacks are smaller than the size of the pot.
The biggest problem with raising this flop is that it is so dry, with the only high card being a Jack, and we don't actually know that either of our opponents is strong here. If we just call, the pre-flop raiser could continue bluffing the turn or, if he's holding AK, he could hit that Ace or King. If we raise, we'll force him to fold those types of hands and we may force the other villain to fold too. After all, we've only seen a half-pot bet and a call on this flop. We can't be sure that either of them has anything to get it in with on this flop.
The difference between raising this flop and calling is probably only small, but I think it's definitely better to flat and give our opponents a chance to bet again on the turn.
Regarding working the numbers out at the table: It's not that important to be precise. If you learn the odds, the chances of making your hand and have a rough idea when you're on the table, that's all that matters. So if you're thinking of set-mining at the table, you don't need to work out "I'm getting combined odds of precisely 14.445639:1" or anything like that. The best thing to do is just work out if your combined odds are significantly greater than 10x the amount of your call.
So if you need to call 20p and you can win £3.50 total, you know you're fine to do it. If you need to call 20p and your combined odds are £1.50, you know you're not fine to do it.
As long as you don't assume that the only thing to do with small pairs is to try to see a flop and hit a set, you'll be fine. That's a big mistake relative novice players tend to make. You don't want to see a cheap flop, you want to win the hand.
EDIT: Ignore all the times I've said "just over one time in five" about the spade hitting the turn. Of course it's a little under one time in four. I lazily thought about the odds as though we knew someone was on the draw. The logic of the argument remains the same, however.
It's absolutely criminal to raise that flop whilst in position. BL, as always, sums it up very nicely, and I really can't add much to it. It basically comes down to stack sizes, size of the pot and the action thus far. All this should tell you that flatting the flop with the effective nuts is the best way to proceed in this hand.
Great news, I got A*CC and will be doing Media and Communication at Birmingham City Uni come September!
In other circumstances, out of position I would have probably folded pocket 6s but in position and with 2 limpers before me - I 100% see my raise to 20p as right. A raise to 12p could easily have tempted someone into seeing a cheap flop and had I not made a set, I could easily be beaten by a better mid pair. In position as I was, had it been checked round to me on the flop - I could then have taken the pot with a c-bet. Obviously I'm not looking to see a flop with every low-mid pair I have, especially out of position. On the button and with the limpers, this seemed like the perfect position to play my 6s.
Now after reading your post, BL - I've changed my mind regarding a raise on the flop. The call was the right move. As you say, aggressing here could cause people with strong but not paired hands to fold. We can't be ultra-aggressive all the time! Obviously I thought it was the right move at the time, I'd only been persuaded that maybe a raise would be the right move last night when I maybe wasn't thinking straight. (WOOO, I got in to uni!)
I'm going to look in to roughly working out the odds, I have some time on my hands and it can't hurt. It could also be useful when I'm looking at my hand history too, so I can look at things in more detail. Then, even if I'm not working the maths out at the tables - I'll still have a greater 'gut instinct' understanding.
It's amazing how looking at and discussing just one hand can be so interesting!
You played the hand exactly how I would've played it. Default raise should really be 12p at 4nl, so with 2 limpers 20p is fine. Rest of the hand is perfect in my opinion.
Comments
So the biggest problem with a spade potentially hitting the turn is that it might scare our opponents out of paying us off. However, we know the turn is going to be something other than a spade nearly four times out of five. I think it's better to take that chance here, especially because we know we only need one more bet to get it all-in, because the stacks are smaller than the size of the pot.
The biggest problem with raising this flop is that it is so dry, with the only high card being a Jack, and we don't actually know that either of our opponents is strong here. If we just call, the pre-flop raiser could continue bluffing the turn or, if he's holding AK, he could hit that Ace or King. If we raise, we'll force him to fold those types of hands and we may force the other villain to fold too. After all, we've only seen a half-pot bet and a call on this flop. We can't be sure that either of them has anything to get it in with on this flop.
The difference between raising this flop and calling is probably only small, but I think it's definitely better to flat and give our opponents a chance to bet again on the turn.
Regarding working the numbers out at the table: It's not that important to be precise. If you learn the odds, the chances of making your hand and have a rough idea when you're on the table, that's all that matters. So if you're thinking of set-mining at the table, you don't need to work out "I'm getting combined odds of precisely 14.445639:1" or anything like that. The best thing to do is just work out if your combined odds are significantly greater than 10x the amount of your call.
So if you need to call 20p and you can win £3.50 total, you know you're fine to do it. If you need to call 20p and your combined odds are £1.50, you know you're not fine to do it.
As long as you don't assume that the only thing to do with small pairs is to try to see a flop and hit a set, you'll be fine. That's a big mistake relative novice players tend to make. You don't want to see a cheap flop, you want to win the hand.
EDIT: Ignore all the times I've said "just over one time in five" about the spade hitting the turn. Of course it's a little under one time in four. I lazily thought about the odds as though we knew someone was on the draw. The logic of the argument remains the same, however.
Good luck with the A-Level results.