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AA multiway in omaha
F_Ivanovic
Member Posts: 2,412
| Player | Action | Cards | Amount | Pot | Balance |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| PokerNo7 | Small blind | £0.10 | £0.10 | £19.60 | |
| F_Ivanovic | Big blind | £0.20 | £0.30 | £42.04 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| lasalondra | Call | £0.20 | £0.50 | £16.38 | |
| notgreat | Raise | £0.40 | £0.90 | £16.36 | |
| JULES7 | Fold | ||||
| SHANXTA | Call | £0.40 | £1.30 | £31.94 | |
| PokerNo7 | Call | £0.30 | £1.60 | £19.30 | |
| F_Ivanovic | Raise | £2.00 | £3.60 | £40.04 | |
| lasalondra | Call | £2.00 | £5.60 | £14.38 | |
| notgreat | Call | £1.80 | £7.40 | £14.56 | |
| SHANXTA | Call | £1.80 | £9.20 | £30.14 | |
| PokerNo7 | Call | £1.80 | £11.00 | £17.50 | |
| Flop | |||||
| |||||
| PokerNo7 | Check | ||||
| F_Ivanovic | Check | ||||
| lasalondra | Check | ||||
| notgreat | Check | ||||
| SHANXTA | Check | ||||
| Turn | |||||
| |||||
| PokerNo7 | Check | ||||
| F_Ivanovic | Bet | £5.00 | £16.00 | £35.04 | |
| lasalondra | Call | £5.00 | £21.00 | £9.38 | |
| notgreat | Call | £5.00 | £26.00 | £9.56 | |
| SHANXTA | Fold | ||||
| PokerNo7 | Fold | ||||
| River | |||||
| |||||
| F_Ivanovic | Bet | £10.60 | £36.60 | £24.44 | |
| lasalondra | Fold | ||||
| notgreat | Fold | ||||
| F_Ivanovic | Muck | ||||
| F_Ivanovic | Win | £24.70 | £49.14 | ||
| F_Ivanovic | Return | £10.60 | £1.30 | £59.74 | |
No reads on any of the players at this time, although this is more to do with my decisions anyway. So I 3bet with AA78ss. Not too sure of my play here. It's an OK AA so not the worst mistake to 3-bet but given I'm probably not going to isolate too often and will be OOP maybe just flatting pre is the best play.
So the flop is pretty good for me. I have the best one pair hand, a gutter to the nut straight and a backdoor nut flush draw. But being 5 way, I' unsure if I should be betting or not. I'm likely still ahead/have good equity vs most hands but at the same time I figure if I do bet I'm only getting a call out of hands that I'm behind. So I decide to check and see what happens. It gets checked through and I hit a pretty decent turn for me. I decide to bet just less than half pot - should I be betting bigger? I figure I'm fine with more callers as my hand probably does better against more callers. But if I bet bigger I get them to put in more money with hands that I probably have beat equity wise.
River I hit the nuts and put both my opponents both in but unfortunately they both fold.
Comments
Firstly 3-betting AAxx oop. I dont like it personally unless of course you are also 3-betting hands like 89TJ ds the same way. If not then you are polarising your hand here. Most 3-bets at this levels are AAxx or KKxx. You are really not going to get any folders right here because people will go to the flop with pretty much any 4 cards because they might get lucky.
The flop: I disagree with your perception of it. I think this is a truly awful flop for you. Not the worst possible obviously but still not good. You have one pair and are not in good position against hands like 4567 or 6789 which are likely in this sort of pot. And this doesnt include the possibility of flopped sets which should never be overlooked. As we all know from nlhe AA does not play well multiway and is this case you are up against 4 opponents and therefore potentially 24 hands against what is basically 1 pair. And even if you do hit your ace on the turn it would bring in a straight and put a flush draw on the board. So i think on this board the check is good.
Turn although quite a good card bringing the NFD it also open ups multiple wrap draw possibilities as well as another set possibility. So not as great a card as it first would seem. I like the lead out here. A good size bet and gets a few folds and builds the pot nicely. The main thing to remember is you are not betting the hand you did preflop. Pre you were bettinbg your AA and a few draws, now you are betting your NFD and gutshot, the aces have all but disappeared.
River: The absolute perfect card for you here. No way anyone can put you on that straight and would probably put you on missed flush/straight or a set. Depending on reads on the oppos is whether or not i bet out here. The lead out is only going to be called by stations and non believers. Sometimes a comedy size lead or a check is a better option to get paid off here. But readless always better to bet.
Hope some of the things here are of use
Believe me, I wouldn't be 3-betting AA here if it would be polarizing my range. Also, even if I was I doubt most of the players at the table would be able to exploit that.
Yes, there are particular hands I could be up against where I'm not in very good shape against. However, given how loose everyone is pre-flop (only read I really have) there are also so many hands they could have that just have't connected with this flop very well at all. And given the SPR is so low my hand is pretty good. If I'm against top set I still have 23% equity in the hand, and if I did make a bet on the flop of any reasonable size I have the required equity to call it off. Against 4567 I have 33% and against 6789 I'm a 57% favourite! Against a 2 pair hand I have between 33 and 40% equity.
So as you can see here any bet I make on the flop I'm commited to call it off. Even if I don't make a bet but someone else does, I still probably have the required equity to call a bet. You said the aces don't matter anymore, but they matter a fair amount in my equity. Firstly, they have the potential to counterfeit a 2 pair hand and secondly they can also make top set to beat a lower set. Given all of this now I think betting the flop is probably the best play. I don't really want to give someone a free card, I'd rather get my money in now when my equity is going to be good against the whole of my opponents range.
I don't mind 3 betting AA aslong as you are 3 betting loads of different hands aswell, I think you are likely behind on the flop and also on the turn but just not far behind to allow them to raise. Dream river but he likely has 2 pair so I would bet very small for value on the river here.
Pretty much spot on, echoing my thoughts to a tee.
The only point I would tweak/add to, is regarding the "'Q 5 4 r' is a bad flop for us" comment.
There really arn't going to be many flops we like here. Multiway and OOP, we're gunna be hating life bar flopping a set, super-combo-draw etc (i.e. a flop that's guaranteed to give us a tonne of equity). So to say that this is a terribad (relative to other flops anyway) would be a tad misleading, I think? Like, it's not a good flop. Pretty bad as we're almost forced to lead, or just check-fold, (which seems a little tight given the amount of equity we have here) and it's for sure a spot that a 10 second timebank doesn't even begin to give enough time to make clear, A+ decision.
Having said that it's a gruesome spot, I like a lead here. Players at this level arn't going to be putting you to tough decisions by bluffing some turns, and they're gunna play their hand pretty face up when pots get this big, and versus multiple opponents. You're equity isn't going to be jeopardised by having to ch-f certain turns when some button-monkey just pots his OESD IP. No only that, but we've got a gutshot to the nuts, a backdoor NUT flush draw, and the chance of the board pairing/spiking top set, binking the best hand there also. Not to mention we can turn our hand into a bluff at a later stage too! Who's saying that we have to play our hand here for strict straight-up value for 3 streets? Maybe it comes running K -J and we turn our hand into a bluff with two Ace blockers, etc. This board isn't going to present itself with a tonne of opportunities to do that, sure, but it's worth taking into consideration imo.
So yeah, pre is tough, but I like it. Pay people to see flops with garbage, and just punt as much as you can in the middle while we've got (probably) the best equity holding, and the best brain playing those cards too. Balance is something you shouldn't really be thinking about at this level. Just 3bet the nuts (the hands with high equity) and you're golden.
Flop, I lead. I don't love it, but I think it's better than a check-fold. Which would be MILES better than a check-call here. Never check-call here! :P
Turn is thin, betting our hand for it's straight-up equity like Mr.Logic pointed out already. Ultimately, I like it.
River is fine. Not much to comment on. Talon put it v.well indeed.
Smit says: 'Remember that we can always turn our hand into a bluff at some point! Just because you have Aces, doesn't mean we have to take that NLHE mindset of Aces = VALUE. That's the difference between a good, and a great poker player. Break those norms.'
Great interesting spot though. The clinic needs more of these.
Not sure about our ability to turn our hand into a bluff later on. The SPR is so small that our fold equity is going to be pretty slim. Although saying that, I'm surprised both villains that called the turn then folded the river. They both had only 9 to call to win 45ish.
Smitalos, as you said you'd bet flop, I assume you're happy to bet/call then?
Just like in other games, the amount of the bet almost pails into insignificance when you're repping a polarized range. If you're betting 89XX on 56722 for thin value HU, and I check-raise you from £10 to £25, or £10 to £50, your hand is exactly the same, merely a bluff-catcher. This isn't news to you, no doubt. But let's say this particular board runs out when we have the AA78s on Q 5 4 r... Jx Tx. We bet the flop and got 2 callers, the turn checked around, and it's on us, on the river.
I'd turn my hand into a bluff here. We have 2 blockers to AK (and the limpers are unlikely to have AKXX anyway), as well as an 8 blocker to the 98XX. Whack in a sizable bet, and I doubt you'll get called enough not to make the bet profitable.
Unless you're playing a massive station, FE is always there in PLO. People'll always be wary of the nuts. Heck, they'll rarely hero call weak 2pairs, or even good 2pairs on 4-liners or 3-flush boards.
Not only that, but you'll almost never see people turning overpairs, or weak 2 pairs into bluffs, in great spots because they just hope to get to showdown.
By quite simply saying "all of your flop 2pair range can't call a river bet here", (even if you think it'll go check-check and you'll win more than... half the time), and slamming a bet in there, you'll just crush people post if you're always looking for spots like these.
On Q54r 9s, it's hard to turn AA78s into a bluff 3way, but there are definitely some rivers I'd think about doing it on. **** no. :P