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Thoughts Please

gazza127gazza127 Member Posts: 2,156
edited August 2013 in The Poker Clinic
Just played this hand on 50nl.  Notes of villain say he likes to control pots out of position and is capable of 3 barrel bluffing.


His 3 bet pre puts me into the range of AK-J10 hands as well as AA-1010.  I call pre and see if I can flop the set.  He is continuing every flop here with all of his range.  I call as his range still includes A high and the flop is all low cards.  He then bets turn as well, however  ive picked up the open ended straight draw so I continue. River pairs the board and he moves all in.  Now I don't think he does this with overpairs considering ive flatted two bets and could easily be holding a FH or indeed just a 7... although I could be wrong.  Is this a call considering I cant put him on a 7, FH or Overpair considering his range and betting pattern?
XX Small blind  £0.25 £0.25 £58.40
pacificjoe Big blind  £0.50 £0.75 £64.54
  Your hole cards
  • 4
  • 4
     
Rexyboy Fold     
1267 Fold     
gazza127 Raise  £1.50 £2.25 £49.18
Chrissy_C Fold     
XX Raise  £4.25 £6.50 £54.15
pacificjoe Fold     
gazza127 Call  £3.00 £9.50 £46.18
Flop
   
  • 7
  • 2
  • 3
     
XX Bet  £5.00 £14.50 £49.15
gazza127 Call  £5.00 £19.50 £41.18
Turn
   
  • 5
     
XX Bet  £11.00 £30.50 £38.15
gazza127 Call  £11.00 £41.50 £30.18
River
   
  • 7
     
XX All-in  £38.15 £79.65 £0.00
gazza127 
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Comments

  • JockBMWJockBMW Member Posts: 2,653
    edited August 2013
    Given that you put him on a preflop range which included AA - 1010  I think his play sparks of an over pair.

    He rasied pre and bet every street, over pair or bluff.  I think his hand is pretty polarised, but then what do I know ;o)
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  • chicknMeltchicknMelt Member Posts: 1,159
    edited August 2013
    I'd also say its more than likely an overpair- the last card is a terrible card to keep bluffing at because it doesn't change the board much. If he frequently 3 barrels then maybe, but u just said 'capable of'...
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited August 2013
    If you are calling to flop a set why are you calling on flop, I don't hate the call just asking

    If you have sizing reads they are important here

    I would be tempted to call river, but idk you prob get shown an overpair lots


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  • gazza127gazza127 Member Posts: 2,156
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: Thoughts Please:
    If you are calling to flop a set why are you calling on flop, I don't hate the call just asking If you have sizing reads they are important here I would be tempted to call river, but idk you prob get shown an overpair lots
    Posted by grantorino

    Im calling the flop as the vast majority of his 3 betting range has missed the flop and I can reassess on the turn.  It just so happens that the turn brings the straight into play so I continue.  To be honest, if the board doesnt pair at the end (say its a 10) I dont even consider calling. The fact that hes not remotely fussed about the paired board and barrels straight through it, for me at least polarises his range massively.

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  • calcalfoldcalcalfold Member Posts: 978
    edited August 2013
    "Is this a call considering I cant put him on a 7, FH or Overpair considering his range and betting pattern?"

    Sorry,

    You cant put him on an overpair??????

    Just what!
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: Thoughts Please:
    In Response to Re: Thoughts Please : Im calling the flop as the vast majority of his 3 betting range has missed the flop and I can reassess on the turn.  It just so happens that the turn brings the straight into play so I continue.  To be honest, if the board doesnt pair at the end (say its a 10) I dont even consider calling. The fact that hes not remotely fussed about the paired board and barrels straight through it, for me at least polarises his range massively.
    Posted by gazza127
    I kinda understand why you did what you did

    Your reasoning seems muddled ( or maybe just the way you are writing it)

    If you are continuing on that flop you are not calling to see if you hit a set

    Reassess means what? What turn cards are you calling a second barrell on? Are you betting if he checks? If you check back what's river plan?

    What difference does the paired board make, as opposed to a different card? 

    Just trying to get a handle on your thoughts. Also that's a very unpolarised and wide value 3 betting range you give villain. I might just 4b/f 44 here but I'm sure lots of people won't like that
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  • gazza127gazza127 Member Posts: 2,156
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: Thoughts Please:
    "Is this a call considering I cant put him on a 7, FH or Overpair considering his range and betting pattern?" Sorry, You cant put him on an overpair?????? Just what!
    Posted by calcalfold
    Ok I worded that wrong. Of course he can have an overpair. However the way its played seems as if he has bluffed or has the effective nuts. Is he really shoving with an overpair here? I mean what does he think im calling a 3 bet with and two streets of betting on this board? Does he expect smaller pps to call a value bet on the river. Why is he not worried about the paired board and the fact that I could easily have an overpair crushed? So the way its played for me looks like an overpair is less likely as surely any shove is only going to get called by better...
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  • gazza127gazza127 Member Posts: 2,156
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: Thoughts Please:
    In Response to Re: Thoughts Please : I kinda understand why you did what you did Your reasoning seems muddled ( or maybe just the way you are writing it) If you are continuing on that flop you are not calling to see if you hit a set Reassess means what? What turn cards are you calling a second barrell on? Are you betting if he checks? If you check back what's river plan? What difference does the paired board make, as opposed to a different card?  Just trying to get a handle on your thoughts. Also that's a very unpolarised and wide value 3 betting range you give villain. I might just 4b/f 44 here but I'm sure lots of people won't like that
    Posted by grantorino
    If the turn is a 8 or above and he bets I give up and assume im beat. No im never betting if he checks... only called by better. River plan is again to reassess what the check on the turn meant... and decide based on that play if I think oppo has me beat. I only called the flop to see what oppo would do on turn as I could very well be ahead. I pick up the straight draw which is why I continue...  paired board polarises his shove. He either has a great hand or air.  I give a wide 3 betting range because of my notes that op doesnt like to play out of position and 3 bets in the sb often.
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  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic Member Posts: 2,412
    edited August 2013

    Why would villain be scared of the 7 on the river? Sure, you may have a 7 occasionally in your range here but the majority of the time you just have a pair and a good villain is going to be value betting here with his overpairs if he believes you'll call with a hand such as the one you have.

    You said if it was a 10 you'd fold, but a 10 just puts more potential sets in your range, so why would villain be worried about a 7 making you a FH, but not worried about a ten?

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  • gazza127gazza127 Member Posts: 2,156
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: Thoughts Please:
    Why would villain be scared of the 7 on the river? Sure, you may have a 7 occasionally in your range here but the majority of the time you just have a pair and a good villain is going to be value betting here with his overpairs if he believes you'll call with a hand such as the one you have. You said if it was a 10 you'd fold, but a 10 just puts more potential sets in your range, so why would villain be worried about a 7 making you a FH, but not worried about a ten?
    Posted by F_Ivanovic
    Simply because ive flatted two streets.
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  • gazza127gazza127 Member Posts: 2,156
    edited August 2013
    well heres what happened:
    XX Small blind   £0.25 £0.25 £58.40
    pacificjoe Big blind   £0.50 £0.75 £64.54
      Your hole cards
    • 4
    • 4
    		     
    Rexyboy Fold        
    1267 Fold        
    gazza127 Raise   £1.50 £2.25 £49.18
    Chrissy_C Fold        
    XX Raise   £4.25 £6.50 £54.15
    pacificjoe Fold        
    gazza127 Call   £3.00 £9.50 £46.18
    Flop
       
    • 7
    • 2
    • 3
    		     
    XX Bet   £5.00 £14.50 £49.15
    gazza127 Call   £5.00 £19.50 £41.18
    Turn
       
    • 5
    		     
    XX Bet   £11.00 £30.50 £38.15
    gazza127 Call   £11.00 £41.50 £30.18
    River
       
    • 7
    		     
    XX All-in   £38.15 £79.65 £0.00
    gazza127 All-in   £30.18 £109.83 £0.00
    XX Unmatched bet   £7.97 £101.86 £7.97
    XX Show
    • Q
    • K
    		     
    gazza127 Show
    • 4
    • 4
    		     
    gazza127 Win Two Pairs, 7s and 4s £100.06   £100.06
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited August 2013
    I don't mind the way you played the hand, but all the paired board does is make it less likely you have a set, not sure why you would think its more of a fold if say a 9 comes down

    Also that 3betting range is unusual if he's raggy, usually it would be much more polarised unless he's either extremely aggro, or ye have a lot of history together. 

    If you call that flop you have to be prepared to call a lot of turns imo, without reads he likes to fire once and give up on raggy boards in 3bet pots
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  • GELDYGELDY Member Posts: 5,203
    edited August 2013
    every now and then someone will 3 barrell their two big overs
    every now and then someone will call them down with a pp / bottom pair
    is it luck or judgement?
    every now and then a cat gets kicked



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  • huuuuumehuuuuume Member Posts: 569
    edited August 2013
    looks like a huge leak imo which will eventually cost you a fortune regardless of the result of this isolated hand
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  • gazza127gazza127 Member Posts: 2,156
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: Thoughts Please:
    looks like a huge leak imo which will eventually cost you a fortune regardless of the result of this isolated hand
    Posted by huuuuume
    Whats the point in taking notes on players if you dont use them then?
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  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic Member Posts: 2,412
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: Thoughts Please:
    In Response to Re: Thoughts Please : Whats the point in taking notes on players if you dont use them then?
    Posted by gazza127
    What's the point in posting a thread if your not going to listen to the advice??

    Not saying you're wrong about the call; we don't know who villain is so don't have a read on them. But most players aren't just 3 barrel bluffing here all the time, especially against an opponent that may call them down light. Even though in their PFR they may have more high card hands than overpairs, they will always be 3 barrelin their overpairs whereas they won't always be 3 barreling their KQ hands.

    Also, your reply to my earlier post made no sense still. I ask again; why are you folding if the river is a T, but not when it's a 7?

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  • gazza127gazza127 Member Posts: 2,156
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: Thoughts Please:
    In Response to Re: Thoughts Please : What's the point in posting a thread if your not going to listen to the advice?? Not saying you're wrong about the call; we don't know who villain is so don't have a read on them. But most players aren't just 3 barrel bluffing here all the time, especially against an opponent that may call them down light. Even though in their PFR they may have more high card hands than overpairs, they will always be 3 barrelin their overpairs whereas they won't always be 3 barreling their KQ hands. Also, your reply to my earlier post made no sense still. I ask again; why are you folding if the river is a T, but not when it's a 7?
    Posted by F_Ivanovic
    I am listening to the replies. Im just justifying why I called as I seem to be getting a bit of stick. Now I know that some of the time im just throwing money out the window with this call, but against the op I felt he was three betting light and I wanted to see what people thought about the call. perhaps the main point of this thread is how often do people make calls like this solely based on notes and previous play?

    The reason why im more likely to fold if a 10 comes on the river as his bluffing hands such as A10, k10, q10 and j10 all hit. The 7 doesnt affect his hand. Hes either ahead the whole hand or behind the whole hand.
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: Thoughts Please:
    In Response to Re: Thoughts Please : I am listening to the replies. Im just justifying why I called as I seem to be getting a bit of stick. Now I know that some of the time im just throwing money out the window with this call, but against the op I felt he was three betting light and I wanted to see what people thought about the call. perhaps the main point of this thread is how often do people make calls like this solely based on notes and previous play? The reason why im more likely to fold if a 10 comes on the river as his bluffing hands such as A10, k10, q10 and j10 all hit. The 7 doesnt affect his hand. Hes either ahead the whole hand or behind the whole hand.
    Posted by gazza127
    Your notes say he is capable of 3 barreling, not that he does it 100%.  Also what do you mean by likes to control pots oop, i am assuming you are not talking about pot control

    Something like a T misses nearly his entire range. I don't hate the call, but the river card prob shouldn't make that much difference, especially as he can rep higher cards. 

    I'm not so sure I like calling the 3bet pre. You are going to have to either call down light or make a good few moves to make it profitable given reads imo


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  • huuuuumehuuuuume Member Posts: 569
    edited August 2013
    In Response to Re: Thoughts Please:
    In Response to Re: Thoughts Please : Whats the point in taking notes on players if you dont use them then?
    Posted by gazza127
    If you already know you made the right move why did you start the thread?  surely with your soul reads this thread is just a waste of time/weird brag?
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  • Batkin88Batkin88 Member Posts: 1,682
    edited August 2013
    I think if you call the turn you have to call the river tbh as played I would prob call him down here as I don't think he is shoving the river with an overpair or really any hand at all unless he 3 bet A7 or hit a set himself.
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