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40NL - Flopped 4 Of The Same Number
Lambert180
Member Posts: 12,197
Just looking for general thoughts on my line here.
I'm happy with the flat pre cos it's a small 3b, I think I'm practically never gonna face a 4bet behind and have to fold, we're 150xBB eff V the 3bettor and knowing the other villians I'm likely going 3 or 4way to this (which is obv what we want).
Flop the world, see a donk half pot and a clickback which is a pretty se xy spot to be in after flopping quads. Cold 3betting the flop now looks pretty strong but then so does flatting given the action. But then his flop clickback after 3betting pre looks very strong too so maybe I could try to get him to commit now before he sees cards he doesn't like? Obv I have a lock on the hand.
Check back the turn to allow him to V-bet the river or try stick in a small bet?
Obv river it's a shove w/ SPR.
I'm happy with the flat pre cos it's a small 3b, I think I'm practically never gonna face a 4bet behind and have to fold, we're 150xBB eff V the 3bettor and knowing the other villians I'm likely going 3 or 4way to this (which is obv what we want).
Flop the world, see a donk half pot and a clickback which is a pretty se xy spot to be in after flopping quads. Cold 3betting the flop now looks pretty strong but then so does flatting given the action. But then his flop clickback after 3betting pre looks very strong too so maybe I could try to get him to commit now before he sees cards he doesn't like? Obv I have a lock on the hand.
Check back the turn to allow him to V-bet the river or try stick in a small bet?
Obv river it's a shove w/ SPR.
| Player | Action | Cards | Amount | Pot | Balance |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| hhamza162 | Small blind | £0.20 | £0.20 | £59.43 | |
| Lambert180 | Big blind | £0.40 | £0.60 | £75.49 | |
| smirk10 | Big blind | £0.40 | £1.00 | £19.60 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| smirk10 | Raise | £0.40 | £1.40 | £19.20 | |
| miblack19 | Raise | £1.20 | £2.60 | £21.38 | |
| monsta | Fold | ||||
| rodneypowp | Fold | ||||
| hhamza162 | Raise | £3.40 | £6.00 | £56.03 | |
| Lambert180 | Call | £3.20 | £9.20 | £72.29 | |
| smirk10 | Call | £2.80 | £12.00 | £16.40 | |
| miblack19 | Call | £2.40 | £14.40 | £18.98 | |
| Flop | |||||
| |||||
| hhamza162 | Check | ||||
| Lambert180 | Check | ||||
| smirk10 | Check | ||||
| miblack19 | Bet | £7.30 | £21.70 | £11.68 | |
| hhamza162 | Raise | £15.80 | £37.50 | £40.23 | |
| Lambert180 | Call | £15.80 | £53.30 | £56.49 | |
| smirk10 | Fold | ||||
| miblack19 | Fold | ||||
| Turn | |||||
| |||||
| hhamza162 | Check | ||||
| Lambert180 | Check | ||||
| River | |||||
| |||||
| hhamza162 | Bet | £10.00 | £63.30 | £30.23 | |
| Lambert180 | All-in | £56.49 | £119.79 | £0.00 | |
| hhamza162 | Fold | ||||
| Lambert180 | Muck | ||||
| Lambert180 | Win | £71.70 | £71.70 | ||
| Lambert180 | Return | £46.49 | £1.60 | £118.19 | |
Comments
If he has air just unlucky, if he has any hand at all, he will be calling, which makes getting it all in on the river a lot easier to get paid.
Nice hand.
You don't seem to have noticed that you flatted a cold 4-bet. Admittedly it's a 4-bet to just 9BB but still...
How does that change your view of the pre-flop call?
Yeah Liamboi that's what I was thinking... anything I do looks strong and shoving probably actually looks the weakest of all my options cos who'd shove 5x or a flopped house (KK)
Based on the flop he could have a made hand or a draw so your going to get called often.
If you make your bet look weak he might even move over the top.
Anyway, I think we've got to bet the flop after the pre-flop 4-better checks. We'd probably bet with KQ or the nut flush draw, so lets bet with Quads too. We definitely don't want to see this checked through if we're going to stack the deeper player.
The check-3-bet is going to look strong. The check-call of a small check-raise is going to look strong, especially since it pretty much covers the shorter stacks... I think getting it in is probably slightly better. The bizarre check-raise from the pre-flop 4-better is unlikely to be made with a hand he intends to fold here. Calling, given the SPR, isn't too bad, though. I'd say either way is fine but it looks like you can probably get it in here, so that would seem best. If he has AK, AA or KK he's only beaten by Quads in your range, after all. If he has none of those, it's tough to see how you get more either way.
At first I thought 3-betting/shoving the flop would be kind of cool but I really don't think it's the correct play when we have 2 players behind. OK neither player behind has much back and can only really get involved if they have something but miblack may be more likely to carry on if you flat as opposed to raise/shoving.
Also, hhamza can have AK but you check/shoving over a bet and a re-raise looks for sure that you have a 5 and he can probably get away from it. Whereas even though flatting looks strong, he's OOP so has to decide OTT what to do first. If it's not a heart he may convince himself you have a flush draw and just shut his eyes and ship. If you're sure he'll raise/call off with AK then you can ship flop but yeah I think otherwise calling is probably best.
Also, if he is bluffing with hearts we want to either let him get there, or bluff the rest off OTT. So yeah being IP makes flatting better. Being OOP then perhaps shoving is better, although it's still pretty close.
Regarding ^^^ post, shoving a 5 would seem much better here. With a 5 we don't have the nuts and are worried about turn cards and so with how much is already in the pot, shoving the flop seems fine.
flat is so much better for a lot of reasons
when it's checked to you on turn you have to bet
--
if you want villian to beleive your shoving fd's here then you gotta think that villians think your bit of a spew monkey
Also you gotta think that villian will easily stack off here with one pr
I think the big mistake is not betting the flop ourselves. We should think we're going to be called by a wide range and we're not repping a super-narrow range ourselves. When it comes back to us as a check-raised flop, I don't think there's any way we can bring the shorter stacks along with us if they're not coming along anyway. If they're folding to our shove, they're probably also folding to the 4-betters check-raise and our call...
I also don't agree that we should bet the turn. If our opponent is holding a high flush or better he's likely to pay us on the river either way. If he's holding just a King or AA - which are much more likely - he's not going to like this turn card one bit and can easily fold. He now beats literally none of the hands we repped on the flop. I think checking back the turn can gain us more value than betting the turn.
It’s hard to say if heart turn is an action killer, when villain c/r flop what’s his range. Not certain the vill will fold any K if they have a heart alongside.
Not certain vill will fold any K.
Vill c/r flop range will comprise of FD’s, KK,Kx with or without heart and also AA with or without a heart.
How is villain gonna feel more comfortable stacking on brick rivers.
Villian is not suddenly going to feel great and stack off just because we don’t bet turn.
I fail to see what 5’s we have and also what FD’s.
By checking turn it realy does not guarentee anything, may just be a case of the cooler increases and they house on river or hit nut flush etc..
We can bet turn and make river very hard for villain to fold.
What range does villain 4-bet pre-flop then check-raise flop? That's the real question. How can he ever have any Kx hands or any credible flush draws with the Kh on board? Do we think he 4-bets AhQh then check-raises this board rather than lead? His range, in my eyes, is AA, KK and AK and if he doesn't have one of those we're not getting any more whatever we do.
I agree that villain shouldn't feel more comfortable on the river than he does on the turn just because we check back, but that doesn't mean that people don't. We give him more opportunity to make the mistake by checking back the turn and it's easier for people to convince themselves of our weakness. Stacking off with any hand on the turn is a mistake against our range unless it's a cooler that he'd stack off with on the river, too. How monstrous do we want to look? By betting the turn small we just make it so obvious that we know we're sitting pretty.
We are saying the same thing - 4 bet, c/r flop range is AA/KK/AK but also with fd’s.
Can our range include fd’s ?
If our perceived range includes fd’s then why can’t villians perceived range include fd’s.
Just depends how light they playing.
We bet turn £17 , villain has the same decision on turn that they would do on river. The key thing is if they make a mistake and call turn they can’t get away from river. Checking turn and then vill b/f river or c/f or c/c we essentially get the minimum. Think your giving vilian too much credit to actually fold turn.
Idk though I am swinging back and forth.
If we can rep flush draws and a scared AK and put vilian just on AA/AK/KK then we shove flop 100%
Besides, villain also will need to think what hands we will be bluffing with here. Are we really calling pre-flop with 2 hearts and then jamming a K55 flop over a pot/min-r from villain? Or are we ever doing it as a complete bluff? I don' think so. So villain will rightly assume that despite us not having that many 5's in our pre-flop calling range, we still have more 5's than bluffs here and hence decide to fold his AK/AA otf.
Regarding whether or not to bet the turn when we just call the flop - I think it's close but have a slight preference to checking. I think if villain had something like Ah K then he'd be betting the turn anyway. By checking we're trying to represent a hand like KQ/KJ. We'd probably be betting flushes here so the check allows villain to try and either thin value bet river/bluff river whereas betting will get him to fold any bluffs and he might get away from his AA/AK hands because it looks like we're just far too strong when we bet the turn.
Problem is we can never make out we are not stroung.
We have just flatted flop in the middle of a c/r.
Once we flat flop it doesn’t matter what we do, we look pretty big.
By checking turn imo we look massive.
Unless we are a right donk who, flats pre ! flats in the middle of c/r with KJ/KQ
Idk we have quads how can we play it badly
I've said above that I'm not convinced about flatting the 4-bet with 55. I think anyone putting 45, 56 or 57 in our range would be a bit adventurous. Do we even call a 3-bet with those hands from the big blind? Realistically are those hands in our perceived range facing a 4-bet?... I'd say we have to know that villain is capable of seeing our shove as that at this stage in order to make flatting the flop raise better than 3-betting.
Either way looks super-strong but at least by 3-betting the flop we give him the chance to convince himself we could have a flush draw, AK or maybe some random KQ type hand. We've found ourselves a tricky spot where most good players are going to give us credit for believing we have no fold equity, so shoving is less likely to be a bluff. We have to hope he thinks we're 'gambling' a bit with a draw or overplaying our Kx hands.
Initial raisers thought process "I have already posted a BB, may as well play this pot. I'll min-r tho so I'm showing some aggression"
3bettor "It's a min-r from someone who has posted his BB pre. He's probably fishy; therefore instead of flatting I'm 3-betting the entire range that I otherwise would have opened so that I can isolate the fish.
4bettor "I have a hand I would 3-bet here and it looks like I'm just facing what is effectively a standard open. Therefore, I'm going to 4-bet"
Point is; the ranges here aren't as strong as they normally would be in a 4bet pot. They're still ranges of a 3-bet pot. And if Lambert has a good read that the 2 players to act behind him will call a lot but that them 5-betting is very unlikely, then I could certainly see why he'd call wiith his SCs as well as his pocket pairs. Not saying I agree with the call pre-flop either but it's probably not much of a mistake if it is one.
I just think if I was facing a 3bet on the flop here and I held AK or AA I'd be folding almost always as it looks way too much like we're up against a 5; as I said, despite it being less likely given pre, it's still more likely than him showing up with any other hand.
By checking turn imo we look massive.
Unless we are a right donk who, flats pre ! flats in the middle of c/r with KJ/KQ
If it was suited?! :P I'm not saying we would be but villain might convince himself to think that. Also you say we look massive when we check the turn, yet unless we have 55 or KK then we're not massive. And since those hands are hard to come by, he might assume that we're not that massive. We could still have a strong hand; but then most of our strong hands that aren't nutted are going to be betting the turn.I guess we'll never know if betting the turn would yield more value, but the fact we got an extra £10 on the river suggests checking turn was probably good. I mean if villain is b/folding this river then I don't think he is calling a turn + river bet anyway.
He may just call £14 on turn
Naturally if oppo ain't got a big hand we just ain't getting paid
If the question is how do we get max value from one pr hands then I guess we could all debate this all night.
Think we all have credible arguments