nl20 QQ raised on turn

rancid

vill is reg at nl20

anyone feel like folding

rancid	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£29.99
x	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£41.03
Lambert180	Sit out
	Your hole cards	Q Q
ACEGOONER	Fold
got2fish23	Raise		£0.80	£1.10	£23.80
rancid	Raise		£2.00	£3.10	£27.99
x	Call		£1.90	£5.00	£39.13
got2fish23	Fold
Flop
		9 3 7
rancid	Bet		£3.00	£8.00	£24.99
x	Call		£3.00	£11.00	£36.13
Turn
		J
rancid	Bet		£7.60	£18.60	£17.39
x	All-in		£36.13	£54.73	£0.00
rancid

Lambert180

I like a fold but you know I'm a nit

Don't know many (any?) 20NL regs that would ship here with a worse 1pr or a str8/flush draw

rancid

AhJh ?

probs only one hand !

Qx10h
Qh10x

:S

KhJh

LnarinOO

i think its a fold also- villan has turned our hand into a bluffcatcher given how strong a line we've taken ..ie 3bet pre, bet flop, bet turn and now villan jams all-in- he shouldnt be doin this with anything worse for value- and when we dont beat his value range but do beat his bluffs we should fold the worst part of our value range- since he's bet about £18 to win £18- we need to fold more than half our hands and since we shouldnt have too many bluffs here we should also have to fold some of our bluff catchers also -- and QQ sits near the bottom of our value range

, we have a bluff catcher therfore given the line of call 3bet call, jam- villans has turned every hand in our range thats not a flush into a 'bluff catcher'...

all this changes when the villan bluffs too much or too little however..

Donttelmum

I'd fold :-)

rancid

In Response to Re: nl20 QQ raised on turn:

I'd fold :-)
Posted by Donttelmum

+1


................

Lambert180

What did DTM turn over then

TT with a heart?

rancid

In Response to Re: nl20 QQ raised on turn:

What did DTM turn over then TT with a heart?
Posted by Lambert180

8h10h

LnarinOO

dislike the jam with 108hh and if u called dislike that also

especially as it a mass multi tablin reg- who would never show up with worse , like everrrrr..!!

rancid

i called, it was flopped flush but i think i should fold but maybe i am being results

GELDY

In Response to Re: nl20 QQ raised on turn:

i guess a set wants to protect on sick rivers
Posted by IDONKCALLU

my thought too - if it isn't a low flush its a set that hopes he is ahead and wants to stay that way

so yes - fold

rancid

Are ya all saying no one is capable of shoving pr + heart to get folds from nits

ya folding QQ/KK/AA


any nits folding sets ?

is vill not raising flop with sets ?

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: nl20 QQ raised on turn:

Are ya all saying no one is capable of shoving pr + heart to get folds from nits ya folding QQ/KK/AA any nits folding sets ? is vill not raising river with sets ?
Posted by rancid

What pair + heart hands? I guess JTh that floated the flop or TThh. Plus the QT with a heart that was mentioned. Yes, we might be up against these hands but they still all have decent equity vs our QQ.

Obviously not folding a set because that's much higher up in our turn value betting range + if we are behind we have outs + if we're not behind villain has less outs. (can only hit a flush/straight) Also we have QQ/KK/AA with a heart that we can call with.

rancid

In Response to Re: nl20 QQ raised on turn:

In Response to Re: nl20 QQ raised on turn : What pair + heart hands? I guess JTh that floated the flop or TThh. Plus the QT with a heart that was mentioned. Yes, we might be up against these hands but they still all have decent equity vs our QQ. Obviously not folding a set because that's much higher up in our turn value betting range + if we are behind we have outs + if we're not behind villain has less outs. (can only hit a flush/straight) Also we have QQ/KK/AA with a heart that we can call with.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

we also have AhJx, KhJx

if we have Qh does anyone call

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: nl20 QQ raised on turn:

In Response to Re: nl20 QQ raised on turn : we also have AhJx, KhJx if we have Qh does anyone call
Posted by rancid

Depends how wide I think they're going to shove turn but I probably fold. KK with the Kh is where I would start calling vs most players.

Batkin88

Meh I would fold AA with the ace of hearts here, and I didn't think I was a nit.

rancid

In Response to Re: nl20 QQ raised on turn:

Meh I would fold AA with the ace of hearts here, and I didn't think I was a nit.
Posted by Batkin88

well you could say because u have the Ah, they not shoving with NFD + pr so a pretty good reason to fold.

idk, think you need good reads to call versus vill shoving range

rancid

In Response to Re: nl20 QQ raised on turn:

In Response to Re: nl20 QQ raised on turn : Depends how wide I think they're going to shove turn but I probably fold. KK with the Kh is where I would start calling vs most players.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

yh as above think we need good reads to call even w/KxKh

LnarinOO

AA-KK-QQ all are exactly the same hand in this situation-- and having the FD ontop is irrelevant

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: nl20 QQ raised on turn:

AA-KK-QQ all are exactly the same hand in this situation-- and having the FD ontop is irrelevant
Posted by LnarinOO

Well it depends on the reads we have on villain but they're definitely not the same hand and the FD is relevant because it means when we bluff catch and are wrong we still have some outs. eg. villain has a set and shoves if we call with QQ-AA with no heart we're drawing to 2 outs but with a heart w're drawing to 10 outs.

As to QQ-AA being the same hand well again this depends on what villain's range for shoving the turn is. If he's shoving turn with TT, QQ-AA with a heart then we might want to fold our QQ (since we beat his TT, but lose to KK and AA)  but definitely be calling our AA since now we beat his TT, QQ & KK.

All villains bluff hands have a heart in pretty much so we can definitely be calling off our best pairs with a heart in if we think villain is shoving widely enough.

LnarinOO

im gonna have to disagree.. 

im quite aware of the concept of 'gettin lucky' by having a FD when we're wrong but that wasnt what i was implying when i said its irrelevant- i will come back to this....

QQ-AA play exactly the same in this situation- the only thing we know is that villan is a reg.. We have to think about our villans value rasing range given the fact he over called our 3bet BUT did not 4bet- most the time we can exclude AAKKQQ from his range but they are all in ours.. after the strength we have show by 3b, bet , bet and now villan jams- we can conclude that he's never doin this with worse than our hand for value- ur correct he has turned every non flush hand in our range into a bluff catcher- by choosin the point which we bluff catch in this spot shouldnt come down to our relative hand strength ie QQ =fold and KK=call, ., but where that hand sits in our value range given the action and our percieved range- AND since, we can have AA KK and QQ and villan cant , they play exactly the same way or to phrase differently none should be more of a call over the others, seeing as villan cannot have KK when we have AA- all this is generalisation to the player pool but unless we have specific reads we shouldn't make assuptions or guess-

without solid reads we need to find the correct frequecy to call with, which makes villan indifferent to bluffing. villan has risked about the size of the pot with his jam- therefore we need to call with around half our bettin range to keep him indiffernt to bluffing. we can of course fold all of our bluffs, but 1/2 of our range isnt bluffs- we should only have a bluff here much less than 20% of the time so to make up our correct calling amount - we still have to fold the worst of our value hands too (AA KK QQ sit right near the bottom of our value range)

moving back to having a FD with an OP - its irrelevant due to the fact that villans range stays the same whether we have a heart or not- it only makes a difference when we get the correct price to draw because if we always make plays or calls based on having only 'possible outs' then we  would be making plays for incorrect reasons ie losing plays/bad decisions