In Response to Re: What to do?? : Im basing it on a ridiculous flop shove. As said.... why would someone shove a set here when they get 0 value from unmade hands? Posted by gazza127
In Response to Re: What to do?? : ...he's never going to 5 bet worse than AQ especially as 4 bets have been relatively rare on our table... Posted by gazza127
If your perceived range is AA or KK and he doesn't think you can lay it down on the flop, then he's absolutely right to shove here. I don't agree with LNarin00 saying it's a bad shove from oppo if that's what he thinks of you...
In fact, if that's what he thinks of you it would be bad to do anything but shove the flop.
I obviously don't know what villain thinks of you, but this seems like a very plausible explanation.
I also don't like 4-betting pre-flop if we think villain is 3-betting lots of "junk" which he's then folding. You give examples of his weak 3-betting hands as 8T an 89, though you say that he's flatting your 4-bet with hands like this, so I'm a tad confused what you perceive as the hands he's 3-bet folding, or are these just bad examples?
All we need to think post-flop if we call his 3-bet is "Do I beat the range he's betting here?"
Then, if we call the flop we ask the same question again on the turn..
We just make the most +EV decision against the villain's range. If that means calling down with AQ high, then it means calling down with AQ high.
As played... meh... On the flop, I think it's your perceived range that's important. If you know he thinks your pre-flop 4-bet range is very narrow, and he still wants to get it in on the flop, you should be worried. He's not going to semi-bluff draws against hands he doesn't think you can fold. He doesn't seem like he's afraid of getting it in..
I think your perceived 4-bet range has to be pretty wide to give him credit for a semi-bluff here. If you're saying that he's been 3-betting lots and nobody has been 4-betting him, it looks like a fold on the flop... unless he's a complete nutter. You don't seem to know that he's a nutter, though..
In Response to Re: What to do?? : Yeah I know and i appreciate it... is it really such a bad call? Posted by gazza127
im just tryin to point out that the situation that you have been put in here is a new one..
he has shown u agression before but in a totally differernt manner-
previously he has risked £5.50 ish (as a 3bet) to pick up the pot. No-where has he risked his entire stack so im just saying that your reads on the villan are pretty much irrelevant as this is the 1st time you have seen him do this- the villan can be the most aggro person in the world with his 3bets - but please remeber he has flat ur 4bet and jammed with community cards out-
u can own this type of player in a totally different way imo without tryin to guess what they hold ..
and lastly my thoughts on 4b AQ for value.... i wouldnt 4bet/fold AQ if the villan is only goin to 5bet better and fold all worse- you really want to polarise your range here to 4/bet calling hands ie AA/KK or complete air which you have have and easy fold when he 5bets his nuts.. this keeps you complety balanced and allows you to play perfectly.. having said that im not too sure this would be the correct villan to apply this thought to..
agree with BL if he thinks you cannot fold a one pair hand then ofcourse its the correct JAM - my thoughts that its bad is because it gives us a chance to fold AA-KK-AQ- in this case villan got it spot on and probally levelled you into to thinkin the overbet cannot be for value- WP then
And just shows, just because you (I) would think that no one would ever open shove a set on the flop, for 200 plus big blinds because that is a bad play (imo), losing out on value, does not mean they would not.
I suppose that is a weakness of mines, as well as thinking what they are playing with, i rule things out based on the fact i would percieve it as "bad play".
I suppose sometimes it's best not to think that "oh thats bad play he's never got a set there or AA/ KK" and purely base it on the bet. Which is a big tell. Certainly readless.
Say for example, bythe same logic, we had AA here and to a lesser extent KK, we are folding these too?
I think we need too, it doesn't make sense the shove, but it's shouting loud and clear i have a monster.
Going back to this original hand, circa 100 big blinds deep i think i would call most times here (is that a mistake?)
The difference with this hand is that both players are so deep.
I know that's a mistake the amount of blinds should make no difference really. But if both players had only 100bbs, would you still say this a fold?
Really interesting hearing Lnarino's views again! We are not comparing oranges with oranges. And just shows, just because you (I) would think that no one would ever open shove a set on the flop, for 200 plus big blinds because that is a bad play (imo), losing out on value, does not mean they would not. I suppose that is a weakness of mines, as well as thinking what they are playing with, i rule things out based on the fact i would percieve it as "bad play". I suppose sometimes it's best not to think that "oh thats bad play he's never got a set there or AA/ KK" and purely base it on the bet. Which is a big tell. Certainly readless. Say for example, bythe same logic, we had AA here and to a lesser extent KK, we are folding these too? I think we need too, it doesn't make sense the shove, but it's shouting loud and clear i have a monster. Going back to this original hand, circa 100 big blinds deep i think i would call most times here (is that a mistake?) The difference with this hand is that both players are so deep. I know that's a mistake the amount of blinds should make no difference really. But if both players had only 100bbs, would you still say this a fold? Posted by LARSON7
if i thought sets and AA/KK were not in there range then it would be an easy call.. because of the reasons i said earlier i think it would be an easy fold because they are in the villans range - its still a bad play shoving IMO because it makes it easier to fold -
try not to rule things out because it shouldnt be played the way they played it - try to understand how someone veiws their game and how they veiw yours- the more accurate you can do this then the more £££ and +EV plays you will make-
i see too many ppl making population reads and assuptions where they just go with what the majority think- if your ever goin to 'move up' you have to try and think how your opponent veiws poker..
AA KK and AQ i would fold each one just as easy until i saw the villain show me a reason to call.. i may stuggle to fold AA in game as villan could sometimes have KK but for the Stacks im pretty sure i would folf in game-
100bb deep is totally different - you would rarley get someone just calling a 4bet - this is why u can 4bet smaller - 100bb id be very wary about jus a call pre- id prob exercise pot control on the flop as i see no value in a cbet- he either will raise his slow played AA- KK or sets (yes i see this alot) and wlll fold his 10-JJ-
the amount of blinds effective makes alllll the difference - if we're 100bb deep then theres not too much u can be gettin away from - many of the best pros hate playing +300bb especially playing the likes of dwan/ivey- where they can maneuver there opponents off the best hand jus with pure (sick) aggression..
Tbf, it's all opponent based whether we shove the set here or not, as BL said it depends on what you think of the opponent. For instance, some people (not many) I can just 4bet ship AA pre 100xBB eff and expect to get a lot of calls... against most people my 4bet size would NEVER be even close to a shove w/ 100xBB eff.
Likewise some people raise the flop and you know you can just 3b ship sets, others you have to call and let them barrel off cos a 3b shove on the flop would make them fold overpairs.
I dunno if the villian thought this deeply about it or not, and if he did I expect it's much more likely he's expecting you to snap with AA/KK not AQ.
RE: flatting. yes we can float on a T high flop, but doesn't have to be that kinda flop to float, there's also loads of boards we can just call for value, we can also obv hit, and .... we can just fold, we don't have to win every hand If you think a board is good for his range to 3bet (but as you say you're not sure what that is) and poor for ours in the sense that we're likely behind and unable to rep/get him off stuff, then obv we can just fold.
Agree actually now that we should be folding here especially if we haven't seen him risk his whole stack much in other situations. As I said before we do have the best hand to hero call I think but we don't really need a hero calling range in this spot w/o more reads.
Also I think your 4bet size is fine. When we're deep we do want to 4bet larger but your size is fine here being IP. If we were OOP then you can definitely 4-bet bigger.
Comments
In Response to Re: What to do??: If your perceived range is AA or KK and he doesn't think you can lay it down on the flop, then he's absolutely right to shove here. I don't agree with LNarin00 saying it's a bad shove from oppo if that's what he thinks of you...
In fact, if that's what he thinks of you it would be bad to do anything but shove the flop.
I obviously don't know what villain thinks of you, but this seems like a very plausible explanation.
All we need to think post-flop if we call his 3-bet is "Do I beat the range he's betting here?"
Then, if we call the flop we ask the same question again on the turn..
We just make the most +EV decision against the villain's range. If that means calling down with AQ high, then it means calling down with AQ high.
As played... meh... On the flop, I think it's your perceived range that's important. If you know he thinks your pre-flop 4-bet range is very narrow, and he still wants to get it in on the flop, you should be worried. He's not going to semi-bluff draws against hands he doesn't think you can fold. He doesn't seem like he's afraid of getting it in..
I think your perceived 4-bet range has to be pretty wide to give him credit for a semi-bluff here. If you're saying that he's been 3-betting lots and nobody has been 4-betting him, it looks like a fold on the flop... unless he's a complete nutter. You don't seem to know that he's a nutter, though..
We are not comparing oranges with oranges.
And just shows, just because you (I) would think that no one would ever open shove a set on the flop, for 200 plus big blinds because that is a bad play (imo), losing out on value, does not mean they would not.
I suppose that is a weakness of mines, as well as thinking what they are playing with, i rule things out based on the fact i would percieve it as "bad play".
I suppose sometimes it's best not to think that "oh thats bad play he's never got a set there or AA/ KK" and purely base it on the bet. Which is a big tell. Certainly readless.
Say for example, bythe same logic, we had AA here and to a lesser extent KK, we are folding these too?
I think we need too, it doesn't make sense the shove, but it's shouting loud and clear i have a monster.
Going back to this original hand, circa 100 big blinds deep i think i would call most times here (is that a mistake?)
The difference with this hand is that both players are so deep.
I know that's a mistake the amount of blinds should make no difference really. But if both players had only 100bbs, would you still say this a fold?
Hopefully you recieved it!
Likewise some people raise the flop and you know you can just 3b ship sets, others you have to call and let them barrel off cos a 3b shove on the flop would make them fold overpairs.
I dunno if the villian thought this deeply about it or not, and if he did I expect it's much more likely he's expecting you to snap with AA/KK not AQ.
RE: flatting. yes we can float on a T high flop, but doesn't have to be that kinda flop to float, there's also loads of boards we can just call for value, we can also obv hit, and .... we can just fold, we don't have to win every hand
if you have no reads you guessing based on the assumption that people only shove fd's like this
even verus a combi draw (6h8h) your in bad shape, which imo is more likely than a bare K high at best flush draw
Also I think your 4bet size is fine. When we're deep we do want to 4bet larger but your size is fine here being IP. If we were OOP then you can definitely 4-bet bigger.