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4 of a kind
LARSON7
Member Posts: 4,494
This hand here, i quite like the call on the flop, trying to get the 3rd player to call or re-raise, unfortunatly he folds.
On the turn, i felt that the 3 better on the flop was strong, in saying that the 5 wasn't the best card to appear on the turn. I felt there was a good chance he had an over pair to the board, and was strong so bet the turn to get it in on the river and didn't want to give him a chance to check behind on the turn.
I think i've got this completely wrong, and that he did not have much at all.
On the turn, i felt that the 3 better on the flop was strong, in saying that the 5 wasn't the best card to appear on the turn. I felt there was a good chance he had an over pair to the board, and was strong so bet the turn to get it in on the river and didn't want to give him a chance to check behind on the turn.
I think i've got this completely wrong, and that he did not have much at all.
| LARSON7 | Small blind | £0.02 | £0.02 | £8.51 | |
| b | Big blind | £0.04 | £0.06 | £6.18 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| x | Raise | £0.12 | £0.18 | £3.68 | |
| b | Call | £0.12 | £0.30 | £1.93 | |
| kruger | Fold | ||||
| LARSON7 | Call | £0.10 | £0.40 | £8.41 | |
| b | Call | £0.08 | £0.48 | £6.10 | |
| Flop | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| |||||
| LARSON7 | Check | ||||
| b | Bet | £0.12 | £0.60 | £5.98 | |
| x | Raise | £0.48 | £1.08 | £3.20 | |
| grano | Fold | ||||
| LARSON7 | Call | £0.48 | £1.56 | £7.93 | |
| b | Fold | ||||
| Turn | |||||
| |||||
| LARSON7 | Bet | £0.78 | £2.34 | £7.15 | |
| x | Fold | ||||
| LARSON7 | Muck | ||||
| LARSON7 | Win | £1.44 | £8.59 | ||
| LARSON7 | Return | £0.78 | £0 | ||
Comments
Leading the turn has 'blown your disguise' though, he's obviously either bluffing the flop or happy with his hand, either way we should check the turn and let him carry on.
I might lead the flop, too. Four-handed, can we really be confident that the pre-flop aggressor is going to bet? Also, when we check-call from this position on this board, we basically always have a hand. Sometimes it's a draw, often it's a pair, but it's never a bluff. When we bet, we can have a bluff. If the pre-flop raiser or anyone else has a pair, they're probably not just folding to our lead anyway... unless we've never done this without a big hand and they're aware of that.
I think I'd flat the flop raise. It does look like we have a hand but that doesn't mean they'll give us credit for a massive hand. It would be handy to have some idea of what we think the raise means or of what our image is. Do these guys even think about our range? Either way, they need a hand to call a shove from us but don't necessarily need a hand to keep betting later streets. When we check-3-bet there aren't may credible draws and do we do this with just, say 88?
It's true that whatever we do looks strong, after the bet and the raise, but we don't need to force the villains to fold draws or weak one-pairs. We probably get paid by those big overpairs on later streets either way and I don't think we can rule out them continuing to bluff with AK type hands.
I definitely don't see the logic behind leading the turn. Surely we called the flop to keep the villain's bluffs in the hand, so check and give him another opportunity to bet.
There is no 3-bet on the flop, btw. It goes bet, raise, call. A 3-bet is a re-raise.
I'd probably be guilty of checking the flop, or perhaps putting out a small bet to try and induce a raise. Dunno. Hard to say... has been a long time since I flopped quads!
My point isn't that we can expect someone holding AK to keep betting, only that we know they definitely fold if we shove the flop.
Most of the time they don't make the mistake of continuing but we don't need to rule that possibility out entirely by giving them an easy fold. Give them the chance to make the mistake.
I don't think we should be ruling out AK, or any hand in the pre-flop raiser's range, at the point he makes the flop raise.
why do anything else than c/c - shove river
I didn't want to allow opponent to check behind on the turn. I felt he was pretty strong (over pair) to the board, clearly this was not the case, but went with my gut. It's akward if he checks the turn, betting turn allows me to ship the river.
Larson, having flatted the flop, we need to make our decision on the turn based upon what's likely from our opponent's range. So if we think our opponent has a decent overpair, we should give him the chance to value bet the turn. If he was bluff-raising on the flop, we need to give him another chance to bluff. We need to be checking the turn to him either way.
The problem with leading out is, while we probably still get value from our opponent's overpairs, we definitely get him to fold all of his bluffs. That makes it a less +EV play than checking because we're excluding a part of his range from paying us that we don't need to exclude. It's also possible that we give our opponent a chance to fold some of his overpairs. Admittedly there aren't many micro-stakes players that would fold their overpairs here, but we give them that opportunity because we're repping a 4 or 5.
If we check and he checks back, we need to think about what that means for his range. It probably means that he's not very strong. That means that he likely couldn't have called two streets of betting from us anyway, and at least we gave him the chance to bet. Now we can value bet the river and see if he'll pay us off. It's highly unlikely that he's playing a draw and taking a free card, as he's the pre-flop raiser and there aren't that many drawing hands in his range. Since it's a double-paired board, he's unlikely to want to call with his draws anyway.
So we don't want to be making our decision out of fear of him checking back. Just make the decision that exploits his range best. The plan for flatting the flop was to keep his weaker hands in, so keep his weaker hands in on the turn by checking.
vill has raised flop and you flat, why on earth would you donk that turn card
why do you think vill is not going to bet turn with all value/bluff combos
and yes the level matters because it should alter your play