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20NL MC - 300xBB deep

Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
edited October 2013 in The Poker Clinic
My 3bet size was a misclick, I was gonna go £2.80 total, is that big enough?

After that, just interested on thoughts about my sizing?  And also, are we bet/folding the turn?
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
gillian23 Small blind   £0.10 £0.10 £40.77
Lambert180 Big blind   £0.20 £0.30 £53.43
  Your hole cards
  • K
  • K
     
mishmish Call   £0.20 £0.50 £92.72
newstart12 Raise   £0.80 £1.30 £56.19
dubzs Fold        
gillian23 Call   £0.70 £2.00 £40.07
Lambert180 Raise   £2.00 £4.00 £51.43
mishmish Call   £2.00 £6.00 £90.72
newstart12 Call   £1.40 £7.40 £54.79
gillian23 Call   £1.40 £8.80 £38.67
Flop
   
  • 2
  • 10
  • 9
     
gillian23 Check        
Lambert180 Bet   £5.65 £14.45 £45.78
mishmish Fold        
newstart12 Call   £5.65 £20.10 £49.14
gillian23 Fold        
Turn
   
  • Q
     
Lambert180 Bet   £9.95 £30.05 £35.83
           
           
           
           
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Comments

  • SlipwaterSlipwater Member Posts: 3,592
    edited October 2013
    Once again, I should preface this with: I'm no expert, but...

    £2.80 seems fine with a raise and call before you. Three callers though is slightly worrying, although you still have to expect to be ahead (obviously). Flop bet, I would maybe go a little higher as there are four of you seeing it, and it's a draw-heavy board.

    The queen on the turn is certainly not one of our favourite cards as it does complete a likely straight holding, however with the pre-flop action I would suspect maybe he has pocket 10s, rather than something like KJ... not that it matters, because you're still behind either way. If he flats the turn, I would perhaps - depending on the card and bet size, obviously - check/call the river. I don't think I want to lead out there - you have one pair on a nasty board.

    Hope that is of some use :)
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  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic Member Posts: 2,410
    edited October 2013
    Absolutely hate these spots. I really have no idea about turn play here. I mean you'd expect newstart to be pretty strong when he flats flop here when you bet 4 way. I think I might just check almost my entire range OTT.
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited October 2013
    3+ pre


    turn is a bet
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  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited October 2013
    Yeah I think turn is a bet too, just too many drawing hands and 1pr hands that will still pay me off. Do think it's a bet/fold like.

    Dohhhh has put his turn bet at £12

    I went basically £10

    What do you think?
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  • LnarinOOLnarinOO Member Posts: 545
    edited October 2013
    i think id prefer betting the turn too, i personally like the sizing and yes b/fold - id hate to c/c this on turn a river and lose alot more vs a b/fold on turn
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited October 2013
    why u so concerned on little increments in sizing :) Still gonna price him in with draw ? same gravy...

    may go 13/14

    proba still a puke b/f















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  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited October 2013
    Alreet, cheers guys.

    FWIW, he just folded the turn
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  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic Member Posts: 2,410
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: 20NL MC - 300xBB deep:
    why u so concerned on little increments in sizing :) Still gonna price him in with draw ? same gravy... may go 13/14 proba still a puke b/f
    Posted by rancid
    This thinking is horrible and flawed.

    When we bet, we are betting OUR RANGE to get value from villains ENTIRE range. If we bet smaller villain is going to call with a wider range - and hence be putting money into the pot when we have more equity. If we bet big villain may fold his Tx, JJ hands and only be continuing with hands that beat us or have great equity vs us. And so we will end up putting money into the pot against a range that has more than 50% equity vs our hand. This is not good because it means we are losing money by putting money into the pot.


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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited October 2013

    In Response to Re: 20NL MC - 300xBB deep:

    In Response to Re: 20NL MC - 300xBB deep : This thinking is horrible and flawed. When we bet, we are betting OUR RANGE to get value from villains ENTIRE range. If we bet smaller villain is going to call with a wider range - and hence be putting money into the pot when we have more equity. If we bet big villain may fold his Tx, JJ hands and only be continuing with hands that beat us or have great equity vs us. And so we will end up putting money into the pot against a range that has more than 50% equity vs our hand. This is not good because it means we are losing money by putting money into the pot.
    Posted by F_Ivanovic
    Did you watch the Stuart Rutter vid on poker vip? That's almost word for word!! :D

    ---------------------

    I said 12, coz that'd be my sizing if I was planning to shove the river.

    Not much difference between 10 and 12 now, but 33 into 44 otr just looks/feels better than 35 into 40!

    We don't rly wanna get c/jammed on by semi bluffs if we're planning to bet fold either, so a slightly larger sizing might make this option less appealing to AJdd etc.
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  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic Member Posts: 2,410
    edited October 2013
    Can't recall who the video was by but yeah seems like that was the video! Guilty as charged :P

    I'm sure he explained it a lot better than I tried too though! And yeah I agree 33 into 44 otr seems better. That being said, if we do bet turn, are we ever shoving river ourselves anyway? Just seems like villain is never going to call worse if we shove river. I'm also not sure how many worse hands he calls to a turn bet but by checking we can definitely induce bluffs from worse.
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: 20NL MC - 300xBB deep:
    In Response to Re: 20NL MC - 300xBB deep : This thinking is horrible and flawed. When we bet, we are betting OUR RANGE to get value from villains ENTIRE range. If we bet smaller villain is going to call with a wider range - and hence be putting money into the pot when we have more equity. If we bet big villain may fold his Tx, JJ hands and only be continuing with hands that beat us or have great equity vs us. And so we will end up putting money into the pot against a range that has more than 50% equity vs our hand. This is not good because it means we are losing money by putting money into the pot.
    Posted by F_Ivanovic
    thanks Ivan :)

    A good point well made

    The only problem i have with this is when we bet smaller we allow villian to call perfectly with draws.

    Should we really be doing this, should we not adjust for texture


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  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic Member Posts: 2,410
    edited October 2013
    Watch the video that Dohhhh was on about (can find it on youtube on iPokerVIP channel) - it depends on what you think villains range is. If it's only flush draws then yes you can bet bigger (basically you can go with as big a sizing as you think they'll call with) - I guess in this particular hand flush/straight draws might make up more of villains calling range then weaker made hands with little equity vs us though so I guess betting bigger for that reason might be good.

    Do we actually think villain will call with any worse made hands or is villains calling range OTT just draws + hands that beat us?
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: 20NL MC - 300xBB deep:
    Watch the video that Dohhhh was on about (can find it on youtube on iPokerVIP channel) - it depends on what you think villains range is. If it's only flush draws then yes you can bet bigger (basically you can go with as big a sizing as you think they'll call with) - I guess in this particular hand flush/straight draws might make up more of villains calling range then weaker made hands with little equity vs us though so I guess betting bigger for that reason might be good. Do we actually think villain will call with any worse made hands or is villains calling range OTT just draws + hands that beat us?
    Posted by F_Ivanovic

    yh I'll take a look if someone links it


    well I am also thinking about our range - where we have bluffs and we don't want them calling wider - plus we want to leverage as much as possible for river shoves

    If we look at range v range in this spot I do think bigger is better, espcially where we can have bluffs in our range.

    Saying that it's mainly me going on something I heard a while back where you can have more bluffs in your range if you bet bigger - may have to re visit the maths behind that.


    tis a naughty spot though








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