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NL10, Master Cash 1: Pre-Flop 3-Bet and Flop-Bet Sizings
BorinLoner
Member Posts: 3,863
Hello, hello.
Schumacher had been opening every unopen pot and snap-calling any open-raise. Post-flop he would 'float' every flop, regardless of texture, betting the turn any time it's checked to him and giving up if facing a turn bet. His range is literally any two cards, but if he continues to a 3-bet, his range seems narrowed to two-high cards or pairs. Everyone wants to play with him and that makes the other player's ranges very, very wide.
Ascari has the tightest raising range I've ever seen. His range for flat-calling the raise is the only one to worry about because I get the impression he needs AA or KK to 3-bet. AK, JJ possibly QQ remain in his range after flatting the open raise. He has shown a propensity to station me post-flop with weak top-pairs. I discovered this by punting off a stack to him with a triple-barrel bluff. Apparently he raises tight but can call light, though his pre-flop calling range isn't too outlandish - pairs, two high cards, connectors.
Prost likes to see flops. I expect him to peel any suited hand, connectors and pairs to the open and close to 100% of that range to a standard 3-bet. He'll usually play face-up post-flop.
Senna is the worry. I've got them pegged as a decent player and we've avoided each other for the most part. He seems to be playing pretty tight and seems to have picked up on the drawbacks of bluffing at this table. Certainly, he learned that lesson more quickly than I did.
Anyway, what do we think of my 3-bet sizing and flop sizing? When the action comes to me, I'm way ahead of everyone's ranges and want to get short-handed preferably against the more predictable players. I was slightly annoyed to get action from Senna and Ascari but not Prost.
22BB too small, too big or in the Goldilocks zone?
How about the flop bet? Does this sizing make it difficult to give anyone a spot to semi-bluff with just the Ks or straight draw? I'm not in bad shape against any non-flush, so should I really care about only getting it in against made hands?
Obviously I have to call off the rest when I'm shoved on.
Schumacher had been opening every unopen pot and snap-calling any open-raise. Post-flop he would 'float' every flop, regardless of texture, betting the turn any time it's checked to him and giving up if facing a turn bet. His range is literally any two cards, but if he continues to a 3-bet, his range seems narrowed to two-high cards or pairs. Everyone wants to play with him and that makes the other player's ranges very, very wide.
Ascari has the tightest raising range I've ever seen. His range for flat-calling the raise is the only one to worry about because I get the impression he needs AA or KK to 3-bet. AK, JJ possibly QQ remain in his range after flatting the open raise. He has shown a propensity to station me post-flop with weak top-pairs. I discovered this by punting off a stack to him with a triple-barrel bluff. Apparently he raises tight but can call light, though his pre-flop calling range isn't too outlandish - pairs, two high cards, connectors.
Prost likes to see flops. I expect him to peel any suited hand, connectors and pairs to the open and close to 100% of that range to a standard 3-bet. He'll usually play face-up post-flop.
Senna is the worry. I've got them pegged as a decent player and we've avoided each other for the most part. He seems to be playing pretty tight and seems to have picked up on the drawbacks of bluffing at this table. Certainly, he learned that lesson more quickly than I did.
Anyway, what do we think of my 3-bet sizing and flop sizing? When the action comes to me, I'm way ahead of everyone's ranges and want to get short-handed preferably against the more predictable players. I was slightly annoyed to get action from Senna and Ascari but not Prost.
22BB too small, too big or in the Goldilocks zone?
How about the flop bet? Does this sizing make it difficult to give anyone a spot to semi-bluff with just the Ks or straight draw? I'm not in bad shape against any non-flush, so should I really care about only getting it in against made hands?
Obviously I have to call off the rest when I'm shoved on.
| Player | Action | Cards | Amount | Pot | Balance |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Ascari | Small blind | £0.05 | £0.05 | £34.32 | |
| BorinLoner | Big blind | £0.10 | £0.15 | £22.29 | |
| Mansell | Sit out | ||||
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| Schumacher | Raise | £0.40 | £0.55 | £19.60 | |
| Senna | Call | £0.40 | £0.95 | £29.60 | |
| Prost | Call | £0.40 | £1.35 | £8.45 | |
| Ascari | Call | £0.35 | £1.70 | £33.97 | |
| BorinLoner | Raise | £2.10 | £3.80 | £20.19 | |
| Schumacher | Fold | ||||
| Senna | Call | £1.80 | £5.60 | £27.80 | |
| Prost | Fold | ||||
| Ascari | Call | £1.80 | £7.40 | £32.17 | |
| Flop | |||||
| |||||
| Ascari | Check | ||||
| BorinLoner | Bet | £4.20 | £11.60 | £15.99 | |
| Senna | All-in | £27.80 | £39.40 | £0.00 | |
| Ascari | Fold | ||||
| BorinLoner | All-in | £15.99 | £55.39 | £0.00 | |
| Senna | Unmatched bet | £7.61 | £47.78 | £7.61 | |
Comments
Not a bad flop at all for us, i would be checking here, if you are called what are you doing on the Turn if it's a blank? Plus we want to keep in as many players as possible if we do hit.
The shove is pretty horrible and given your reads, I would be folding the shove. You are a massive dog to their range.
They most likely have a set of 8s or 7s.
Meh I think its all fine - although it definitely looks like youre up against a set
We are probably a 1/3 to win this hand, maybe not even as much as that. Include rake in it as well, 7.5%, There's a good shout for folding.
The initial post makes it sound as though you are there to take money from Schumacher, Ascari and Prost with their mixture of loose / predictable play. Therefore doesn't seem much value in taking what is likely to be a very marginal spot vs the one player you rate as decent / bit of a threat.
Hold onto the money and wait a few hands to scoop some big pots from the other three!
Think the 3b and c-bet are spot on though.
I should apologise for not being totally clear about Senna. When I say he won't be bluffing the table, I meant all the other players. As I say, I've already shown down a triple-barrel bluff and I do think Senna's a good player. For that reason, I thought there was a reasonable chance that he could be shoving here with a semi-bluff. I felt he could easily have peeled my pre-flop 3-bet with hands like KQo, etc. because my perceived 3-betting range is not particularly tight in this situation...
That's where the question about my c-bet sizing matters, because looking back I think my sizing makes it really hard for him to make those semi-bluffs. I was worried that I'm basically strengthening my perceived range here to weight it towards overpairs that aren't folding. I know that I'd make this same bet sizing with my entire range because it's based on flop texture and player dependent, etc. etc. but generally speaking, does this bet size look like I'm never folding?
I know that I said I think he's a decent player and he will be thinking about me as a particular opponent, based on what I've seen, but we all make assumptions about particular sizings and what they mean. Thoughts?
The reasons I didn't want to check the flop are:
i) I think there's a good chance that Senna might call one and fold to a turn shove if he has a hand like 89s (not spades, obv).
ii) I know that Ascari will call with his top-pair hands and fold everything else. I don't hate getting called by him because I have position and will see the turn and river for this amount. Against his one-pairs, I'm a favourite anyway if I see both cards.
iii) I can fold out a lot of weaker one-pair hands like 7Xs or lower pairs.
I'd be pretty happy with any of those results.
If Ascari raises this flop, it's an easy fold because I'm not sure if he even shoves sets on this flop. Certainly that would be the bottom of his range.
Against Senna, I felt I would have enough equity against his shoving range, if it included some semi-bluffs. I didn't like it, but bet-folding against the range I was assigning him would be something I'd like even less. It's a sigh-call, but it was always a bet-call against Senna.
So, what do we think? It's just those sizings I'm not sure about. Glad that people don't hate my pre-flop 3-bet, though. Although I understand why Larson would think smaller may be better, I just think it goes five-way to a flop too often and I miss a bit of value, too.
Btw Geldy, my reads aren't usually this good. I was only single-tabling at the time, though, because I'd planned to just have a quick half hour session.... I sat around midnight or 1am and stood just after 6am. lol