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Boring AK spot!

F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic Member Posts: 2,410
edited October 2013 in The Poker Clinic
layerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
F_IvanovicSmall blind £0.20£0.20£81.42
lauren924Big blind £0.40£0.60£60.48
 Your hole cards
  • A
  • K
   
NooGoooodFold    
zinfanFold    
TheDog88Fold    
F_IvanovicRaise £1.00£1.60£80.42
lauren924Raise £1.60£3.20£58.88
F_IvanovicRaise £4.50£7.70£75.92
lauren924Raise £7.40£15.10£51.48
F_IvanovicCall £3.70£18.80£72.22
So villain hasn't been active. Only previous note is that he limped OTB then 3-bet/5bet aftter I raised in the blinds. Should I just jam pre-flop or call and see a flop, or is folding an option? 

Comments

  • SlipwaterSlipwater Member Posts: 3,592
    edited October 2013
    He is raising you twice. I don't think we are ever folding, but the problem is (as you know) when the flop does not have an ace or king on board. If he hasn't been active before, I think I am inclined to give him credit for a big hand until I can determine otherwise. Probably call, then check the flop. Go from there.

    But, having said that, I would probably be willing to just bin this one on almost any flop, unless he proceeds quite tentatively thereafter. Perhaps the best thing to do is just to throw the cards in the muck to begin with, and wait for a better spot.

    Lol. In short, I don't know! :D
  • gazza127gazza127 Member Posts: 2,156
    edited October 2013
    Opponent just clicked it back?  Im 6 betting here.  Probably shoving.
  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited October 2013
    flat 3 bet - play some pokers untill i have some reads
  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic Member Posts: 2,410
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Boring AK spot!:
    Opponent just clicked it back?  Im 6 betting here.  Probably shoving.
    Posted by gazza127
    Yeah. If they'd been the slightest bit active I'd have no hesitation in 6betting/getting it in but here his range looks like QQ+ and AK minimum. And given they're probably fishy I don't need to take such a high variance route.

    Anyway I call pre and they donk shoved a QJx monotone. (not my suit)

    I think if I was offsuit I'm just folding/shoving but being suited I think it becomes more OK to just take a flop? 

  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited October 2013
    Probably shouldn't have left villian's name in just cos I'm gonna use my own reads now lol.

    I'll buy you 2 pints at the SPT grand final if this person doesn't have AA

    You can have 1 pint if they have KK.

    Otherwise nothing ;)

    I don't love calling cos the implied odds aint great cos the odd time it's KK you've probably aint stacking them on Axx.
  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic Member Posts: 2,410
    edited October 2013
    eh I really need to remember to take names out! And deal.. how we going to find out though? :P 

    Hard not to call pre-flop when we're getting 20% though. I reckon we probably will get value on A high.  And if we flop a flush draw we're happy to get it in as well.


  • BorinLonerBorinLoner Member Posts: 3,863
    edited October 2013
    She's min-3-bet and then min-5-bet, so it looks like she's being generous and showing you her hand is either KK or AA. Unless you've seen her do this with weaker hands before, I think that's the assumption we should make.

    That probably makes it a fold pre-flop. I guess we have decent pot odds against half of her range to look for the Ace on the flop, though I don't imagine our implied odds are that great if it hits. There will also be the RIO implications of the Ace hitting when we're up against a set.

    Flopping the flush? How often does that happen? Not worth considering, I think, especially if we're fairly sure we're up against a hand that won't fold to a semi-bluff with a draw.

    I think the only reason to call pre-flop is that we think there are boards on which we can get her off her hand. Out of position, that's going to be tough.
  • gazza127gazza127 Member Posts: 2,156
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Boring AK spot!:
    She's min-3-bet and then min-5-bet, so it looks like she's being generous and showing you her hand is either KK or AA. Unless you've seen her do this with weaker hands before, I think that's the assumption we should make. That probably makes it a fold pre-flop. I guess we have decent pot odds against half of her range to look for the Ace on the flop, though I don't imagine our implied odds are that great if it hits. There will also be the RIO implications of the Ace hitting when we're up against a set. Flopping the flush? How often does that happen? Not worth considering, I think, especially if we're fairly sure we're up against a hand that won't fold to a semi-bluff with a draw. I think the only reason to call pre-flop is that we think there are boards on which we can get her off her hand. Out of position, that's going to be tough.
    Posted by BorinLoner
    Nonsense.  Stick it in!


    Gamble! Gamble! Gamble!

    ;)
  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic Member Posts: 2,410
    edited October 2013
    What do people do here if they have KK? What about if we're only 100bb deep with AKs, or 100bb deep with KK?
  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited October 2013
    100bb deep with AKs we can fold as played but I wouldn't be 4betting AKs if it wasn't to get it in so I'd have just flatted the 3b.

    100bb deep with KK I absolutely hate my life cos we have 2 blockers to pretty much the only value hand they can show up with that doesn't have us crushed lol. I just can't fold KK 100bb deep pre apart from maybe 1 villian that comes to mind, BUT against that person I wouldn't put myself in that situation. Against some people it's better to just flat 3bets with KK imo because they're range for continuing when facing a 4bet just leaves us in dreadful shape.

    FWIW, I dont think this villian is one of them, because they can flat the 4bet with worse but in this situation (where they've gone for the min3b/min5b I think we'd get it in and expect to see AA a lot.

    4bet ranges are over-rated at 20NL ;)
  • BorinLonerBorinLoner Member Posts: 3,863
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: Boring AK spot!:
    What do people do here if they have KK? What about if we're only 100bb deep with AKs, or 100bb deep with KK?
    Posted by F_Ivanovic
    *Running around the room*

    "Woop!, Woop! Woop!... I have Kings!"

    *Kisses the dog*


    Get it in and dismiss it as a cooler if they have AA. We couldn't see that coming, could we? lol

    Even though I'm still thinking this line is typical of AA or KK, I can't fold and am happy to get it in. With AK, we're only flipping the times she happens to show up with QQ or another AK but obviously KK dominates those. 100BB deep I think it's easy and really is a cooler, although I'm not especially delighted with the villain's line. I just can't fold KK against a single opponent without soul reads.

    100BB deep with AKs... meh... still fold to the min-5-bet. Again, we're hoping for 70% equity at best, but think we're probably 50% or worse.
  • BorinLonerBorinLoner Member Posts: 3,863
    edited October 2013
    I'd normally agree with not 4-bet folding 100BB deep with AKs, however this is slightly different, in my mind.

    We have little history with the villain, so they shouldn't be 5-betting too light against us. We shouldn't expect them to, at least. Most players aren't min-3-betting and min-5-betting light, either way, and when they do it's usually a legitimate hand. We also know that we're going to have our 4-bet called by non-believers a fair amount, blind on blind in a vacuum, so we do want to 4-bet our AKs.
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