You'll gather how long it took me to write that when I tell you that HHY... hadn't even posted when I started. So I hadn't read anything after that. An interesting point would be that, in a cash game, I would consider it to be an easy raise pre-flop, readless. I'm not going to go to great lengths on this, but what do people think the effects of ICM are on the EV of the raise in the Big Blind with ATC, versus a Small Blind limp? Clearly, marginal +cEV spots are made -EV spots by ICM, but do we think this spot is marginal enough to be -EV, thanks to ICM? Posted by BorinLoner
erm.
yes*
*may be a complete guess, as i dont really understand anything you just said.
Thanks also to Borin for the read on the lol - makes more sense
on reflection flop raise is bad - I wouldn't be putting 600 in though I was thinking min here. Plus any further resistence and I am shutting down completely. bet + call to reraise is stronger that x2 lead outs.
I guess the "player dependency" factor is also highly relevant and we should have some sort of feel for villain from any previous Blind v Blind hands.
The shove is almost certainly not a bluff
The flop bet could be anything - blind v blind.
With a limp+lead out, Villain could have low connectors or A5 and hit trips, could be on AA,KK, and didn't want to just nick the blinds but play a hand for value which would depend on hero's actions to previous SB raises. Equally could be betting a dry board to take pot down.
Calling does put us in an uncomfortable position if the villain bets out again - what if they make it 300/400. If we call there on a brick card isn't that worse than a reraise to flop?
That's what I was trying to say really - I don't want to give villain chance to bluff me off pot if they are bluffing - and that depends on whether we think they are capable of double-barrelling or will tighten up with some resistence. So the raise was not just to avoid scare card it was to avoid being bluffed off the pot.
If we are in a situation when we think every bet means they have something then folding to flop bet is possible.
Depending on my feel for the table and the villain I could justify a fold, call and even a reraise. Cold cards and maths/gaming theory seem to rule out the latter so thank you.
These blind v blind marginal hands are tricky - at least give me that?
Yeah I was just lol'ing at the fact that both times I came to this thread Gazza had beat me to it saying exactly what I planned to say.
You're suggestion sounds an awful lot like raising to 'find out where we are' which is just bad.
Generally we should either be raising for value because we'll get called by worse (we are never getting called by worse)
OR
Raising as a bluff and so trying to make hands better than ours fold (we are never gonna make better hands fold).
The only other reason really is to protect our equity but as I said, because there's no draws on the flop, there just isn't a single hand that has even close to a half decent chance of catching up if we're ahead.
But yeah these BvB limped spots can be really awkward.
Okay, most of you confirmed that I was right to fold - that's what I thought really, just wanted to double check as there was a little doubt in my mind.
To those who said I shouldn't have gone into the hand with J3 off-suit, I was the BB so just checked when SB called :-)
Yeah I was just lol'ing at the fact that both times I came to this thread Gazza had beat me to it saying exactly what I planned to say. 1. You're suggestion sounds an awful lot like raising to 'find out where we are' which is just bad. Generally we should either be raising for value because we'll get called by worse (we are never getting called by worse) OR Raising as a bluff and so trying to make hands better than ours fold (we are never gonna make better hands fold). The only other reason really is 2. to protect our equity but as I said, because there's no draws on the flop, there just isn't a single hand that has even close to a half decent chance of catching up if we're ahead. But yeah these BvB limped spots can be really awkward. Posted by Lambert180
Sorry for the misread Lambert.
1. It certainly wasn't meant to be that - one of my pet hates is the term "raising for information" challenged Gazza on that point myself in another thread recently
2. Meant to be this in my thinking - vs outdraw or bluff and bluffs can come on turn with or without overcard so I am not just worrying about a 12% chance. 25% chance of an overcard + whatever chance of villain bluffing flop and turn. I have conceded defeat on the overall good/bad decision though so no need to continue.
Poker thinking can definitely be affected by mood and my decisions probably are not great at the moment because I am thinking too negatively. Hence losing value by not wanting to be outdrawn.
Apologies to Peter didn't mean to hijack your thread hope you learned as much as I have.
On reflection I should have asked the question instead of making the statement. Something like "would a raise be justified to block overcard draws or another bluff on turn". Answer still no - I just might not have felt so berated!
In Response to Re: Too tight? What would you do? : Sorry for the misread Lambert. 1. It certainly wasn't meant to be that - one of my pet hates is the term "raising for information" challenged Gazza on that point myself in another thread recently 2. Meant to be this in my thinking - vs outdraw or bluff and bluffs can come on turn with or without overcard so I am not just worrying about a 12% chance. 25% chance of an overcard + whatever chance of villain bluffing flop and turn. I have conceded defeat on the overall good/bad decision though so no need to continue. Poker thinking can definitely be affected by mood and my decisions probably are not great at the moment because I am thinking too negatively. Hence losing value by not wanting to be outdrawn. Apologies to Peter didn't mean to hijack your thread hope you learned as much as I have. On reflection I should have asked the question instead of making the statement. Something like "would a raise be justified to block overcard draws or another bluff on turn". Answer still no - I just might not have felt so berated! gl on the tables - may be on later this evening. Posted by Phantom66
Just one point with the thread in question: Theres a difference between raising to isolate limpers and define villains range preflop, and raising for information on a dry flop.
In Response to Re: Too tight? What would you do? : Just one point with the thread in question: Theres a difference between raising to isolate limpers and define villains range preflop, and raising for information on a dry flop. Posted by gazza127
I think on the other thread you were proposing raising for the right reasons - to isolate and to take the initiative with the betting. So I was not against your decision. You initially described/justified the raise using words similar to raise to find out where you are/for information which is what prompted my response.
I still don't like "define villains range". You either call and set mine or raise to isolate/take initiative if a limper calls you. You are either slightly ahead or massively behind to a limp caller so you don't have much more info. You have bought yourself the opportunity to take a huge pot if you hit trips or to c-bet and take a pot down if you both miss flop or villain sees overcards to their middle pair/connectors.
In this hand I never attempted to justify the raise to "find out where I am" it's just not in my vocabulary or line of thought - ever. Have seen a few analysts rant about the phrase and it always sticks in my mind not to use "finding out where I am" as en excuse to put more chips in pot.
In all truth I would have played this hand exactly the way Peter did.
The raise suggestion should have been asked as a question. When reviewing a hand one key question I always ask myself is should I have raised / reraised anywhere in the hand for a better outcome long term.
Like most people learning the game I don't raise/reraise enough.
Comments
erm.
yes*
*may be a complete guess, as i dont really understand anything you just said.
Thanks also to Borin for the read on the lol - makes more sense
on reflection flop raise is bad - I wouldn't be putting 600 in though I was thinking min here. Plus any further resistence and I am shutting down completely. bet + call to reraise is stronger that x2 lead outs.
I guess the "player dependency" factor is also highly relevant and we should have some sort of feel for villain from any previous Blind v Blind hands.
The shove is almost certainly not a bluff
The flop bet could be anything - blind v blind.
With a limp+lead out, Villain could have low connectors or A5 and hit trips, could be on AA,KK, and didn't want to just nick the blinds but play a hand for value which would depend on hero's actions to previous SB raises. Equally could be betting a dry board to take pot down.
Calling does put us in an uncomfortable position if the villain bets out again - what if they make it 300/400. If we call there on a brick card isn't that worse than a reraise to flop?
That's what I was trying to say really - I don't want to give villain chance to bluff me off pot if they are bluffing - and that depends on whether we think they are capable of double-barrelling or will tighten up with some resistence. So the raise was not just to avoid scare card it was to avoid being bluffed off the pot.
If we are in a situation when we think every bet means they have something then folding to flop bet is possible.
Depending on my feel for the table and the villain I could justify a fold, call and even a reraise. Cold cards and maths/gaming theory seem to rule out the latter so thank you.
These blind v blind marginal hands are tricky - at least give me that?
Cheers
You're suggestion sounds an awful lot like raising to 'find out where we are' which is just bad.
Generally we should either be raising for value because we'll get called by worse (we are never getting called by worse)
OR
Raising as a bluff and so trying to make hands better than ours fold (we are never gonna make better hands fold).
The only other reason really is to protect our equity but as I said, because there's no draws on the flop, there just isn't a single hand that has even close to a half decent chance of catching up if we're ahead.
But yeah these BvB limped spots can be really awkward.
To those who said I shouldn't have gone into the hand with J3 off-suit, I was the BB so just checked when SB called :-)
1. It certainly wasn't meant to be that - one of my pet hates is the term "raising for information" challenged Gazza on that point myself in another thread recently
2. Meant to be this in my thinking - vs outdraw or bluff and bluffs can come on turn with or without overcard so I am not just worrying about a 12% chance. 25% chance of an overcard + whatever chance of villain bluffing flop and turn. I have conceded defeat on the overall good/bad decision though so no need to continue.
Poker thinking can definitely be affected by mood and my decisions probably are not great at the moment because I am thinking too negatively. Hence losing value by not wanting to be outdrawn.
Apologies to Peter didn't mean to hijack your thread hope you learned as much as I have.
On reflection I should have asked the question instead of making the statement. Something like "would a raise be justified to block overcard draws or another bluff on turn". Answer still no - I just might not have felt so berated!
gl on the tables - may be on later this evening.
Theres a difference between raising to isolate limpers and define villains range preflop, and raising for information on a dry flop.
I still don't like "define villains range". You either call and set mine or raise to isolate/take initiative if a limper calls you. You are either slightly ahead or massively behind to a limp caller so you don't have much more info. You have bought yourself the opportunity to take a huge pot if you hit trips or to c-bet and take a pot down if you both miss flop or villain sees overcards to their middle pair/connectors.
In this hand I never attempted to justify the raise to "find out where I am" it's just not in my vocabulary or line of thought - ever. Have seen a few analysts rant about the phrase and it always sticks in my mind not to use "finding out where I am" as en excuse to put more chips in pot.
In all truth I would have played this hand exactly the way Peter did.
The raise suggestion should have been asked as a question. When reviewing a hand one key question I always ask myself is should I have raised / reraised anywhere in the hand for a better outcome long term.
Like most people learning the game I don't raise/reraise enough.