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should i just take the free card
craigcu12
Member Posts: 3,962
having got a short stack jam preflop it's hard to know just what the other villain who the calls, is likely to hold so my main reason for the call is to hit a set but having got a straight draw I am now left questioning weather I could force the other caller to fold or if the check is still better
| chrisx2525 | Small blind | £0.05 | £0.05 | £0.83 | |
| x | Big blind | £0.10 | £0.15 | £17.03 | |
| JOANIEW | Big blind | £0.10 | £0.25 | £14.65 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| JOANIEW | Check | ||||
| rancid | Fold | ||||
| Hadjinik | Fold | ||||
| craigcu12 | Call | £0.10 | £0.35 | £38.54 | |
| chrisx2525 | All-in | £0.83 | £1.18 | £0.00 | |
| x | Call | £0.78 | £1.96 | £16.25 | |
| JOANIEW | Fold | ||||
| craigcu12 | Call | £0.78 | £2.74 | £37.76 | |
| Flop | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| |||||
| x | Check | ||||
| craigcu12 | |||||
Comments
Villian's range can be really wide cos...
1) You're 200xBB deep if you do call
2) You've limped so you've basically announced that you almost definitely don't have a big hand.
I'd be the flop cos there's a very good chance we already have the best hand and can get value from worse... if we are behind then we still have a decent amount of outs
although it's not the case in this hand
If their was 2 limpers before me is it not more better when OTB holding small pairs to limp because if i hit a set I could get callers more easily by just doing cheap bets that keep them all in, I see limps happen a lot of times with suited connectors when it's a limped pot.
How often are we really going to play for stacks in a limped pot, even multi-way? Not often, despite it being NL4.
If we're constantly raising our hands in position, and our opponents get fed up of this, they'll be more willing to stack off against us with marginal hands. So our implied odds are better when we raise.
We also balance our range when we raise our 22 in the same way we'd raise our AA, AQ, etc. When we limp here, we're basically signalling that our range is suited connectors and small pairs. That might not be picked up on by the newest of players but they won't be new forever. We're not teaching ourselves to play against better opponents. We're playing very exploitable poker.
I could come up with a whole host of other reasons not to overlimp pairs in position. I've made them all many times, though, so I'm sure you've seen them and know what I think.
In short: We can win more pots by raising and c-betting. Implied odds are poor in limped pots. We make it easier to get paid when we raise with a de-polarised range. We keep our range balanced... other things too, but I'm bored of saying the same things.
if we attempt to balance our range by playing our entire range the same regardless of anything else then this is just spew
if we apply the balance theory above and raise ip in a mult way limped pot with 44 for example - what are the expected outcomes given the fact that villians are never folding and we are seeing a flop mult way.
Basically think you need to concentrate more on looking at your overlimping range
we need to think about how we play our range verus villians perceived range and more importantly how we still remain +EV across our whole strategy
If they are folding, we just need to establish at what point that is. If they'll auto-call a 4x raise but will auto-fold for 6x, we make it 5x. Not because we always want a fold but because they're making bigger mistake against us by calling more money out of position. We want to know how much we can raise to be called by a wide limping range. We play in position down the streets against them.
It's not a matter of balancing while ignoring everything else. It's a question of varying our play based on our opposition, exploiting them in the best way. If you have the chance to play big pots in position against weak ranges, you should do that.
"Balance" isn't a misconception. It's just an explanation of how we keep ourselves from being transparent and exploitable: The reason why, against particular opponents, we'll flat a raise with AA or KK, rather than 3-bet, or vice versa with 89s.
I don't have an overlimping range, in position. Making an unbalanced play that telegraphs your range like this is spew (unless I think that someone is trying to exploit my raising over those limpers). The only way to compensate for it is to start limping big hands. On occasion this is a good idea, because a particular opponent will give us what we want. If we're not doing it to exploit a particular opponent, we're not doing it for a good reason.
So if we're overlimping because we're holding a small pair and want to flop a set without building a pot, we're not overlimping for a good reason.
balance is mis applied overall, you can be balanced in the old thinking way and play a wide range of hands the same - it doesn't mean it's going to be +EV as an overall strategy.
If we wish to "balance" so we do not give off tells and/or not be exploitable then ok, but we can unbalance till the cows come home verus level 1 and even 2 thinkers and it won't have any differance - we still going to get paid.
essentially we can never say we must play this way because it's balanced because it's just not a good enough reason.
To sum it up our range needs to play very well against the limpers range when we are raising and/or over limping.
To lump our whole range into our raising range and balance to make it far wider is a mistake.Because if we are balancing then we have to include the whole spectrum which makes our range weaker.
Obviously when we overlimp our range is capped, very much weaker and, worse still, easily defined. We're weak when we're making ourselves look weak.
When we have a limping range, it does make our perceived range stronger when we raise, but that's because our actual range is stronger. We're strong when we're making ourselves look strong. That's really bad for our value hands.
My point about raising the button here isn't wholly about balance. That's just one of the benefits. What I will say is that if we think villains are going to limp-call OOP and play face-up post flop, that really is a great reason to raise 100% of our hands. Having a wide range for raising isn't a problem if we're exploiting our opponents' weak ranges and transparent play. It doesn't matter how our range plays against theirs if they're check-folding a lot. Sometimes they'll have a hand and sometimes so will we. However, we'll be winning all the pots where neither of us has anything and even some of the pots when they do have something but can't stand our betting.
When they adapt to this, we'll adapt to them.
if I am going to do a raise with weak pairs and suited connectors OTB when their is lots limped should I make my bet size 10BB?
It's 10nl not 100 nl! If you want to limp on the button, pocket 3s is quite a decent hand to see multiway with a pocket pair.
Don't worry about all this "limping range" and "overlimping" and "balancing our limping range". Just do what is right for you, in my opinion there's nothing wrong with limping or raising here.
I've played against you often enough to know you seldom limp into a pot, so doing it once in a while is all good.
In this hand Bet flop about 1.30-55.
I'm just ranting though since every person who has limp/called against me lately has got lucky and took my chips hahaha.
I just feel sometimes people play in a robotic way you must no do this/ you have to do this.
A lot of poker is circumstantial.
I agree 100% as a rule of thumb limping is not optimal. However, once in a while it's good to throw in a limp.
This hand OTB we can raise 3s, I cnat remember how many are in the pot, but chances are they are coming all to see a flop. If we hit a set, they can hit there junky 2 pairs, top pairs bad kicker, when we hit out set we can win a big pot, or get away from it having put in the minimum. Of course we have the button can take the aggressive line and take it down easily post flop. But if there is a few callers (prior) we can when a big pot from limping in when we hit our set.
Limping is all right in two spots:
1) There have been multiple limpers before you.
2) There is an aggressive player after you who almost always raises.
I do raise if I am the first to open up the pot even with small pairs and if OTB hands such as QJ J10 suited connectors and Axs
the major question I have in relation to limped pots is,
What size bet will get enough limpers to fold preflop especially so in MTTs?
the reason I ask this is after what happened when I raised that KJ hand to 200 yet still get 3 callers, although I hit the J on that flop a lot of the time I will miss completely and if I get as many as 3 callers it can become more of a wasted chips than a steal because of the risk involved in bluffs knowing there will be a lot more chance of a caller.
However, as a guide, the old rule of 3x+1 is still a solid point to start from when we're deepstacked in position. We can make it a little more when we're out of position. So in that KJ hand, I'd be raising it up to about 240 as a default.
Generally speaking, as I said above, you want to find the amount which they won't automatically click the call button because that's your maximum value spot and your optimal bluff bet, too. So if you think they'll auto-call 4x but fold a large portion of their range to 6x, you should make it 5x. Of course, we can't adjust this raise size dependent on our hand strength.