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When should I be continuation betting?

Waddell93Waddell93 Member Posts: 56
edited October 2013 in The Poker Clinic
Morning all, 

So my origional question was going to be 'When should i continuation AK?' as if i raise pre, get a caller and then the flop is low/mid. I conti bet 1/2 pot and I get insta called for the turn to be a blank and i check to there all in! 

But in reflection, the true question would be 'when should i be continuation betting?' 

I completely understand the relevance of conti betting on a dry board and not a wet one, but i still find the flat call from the villian to shove the river. 

Any advise would be great :)

Comments

  • peter27peter27 Member Posts: 1,634
    edited October 2013
    In Response to When should I be continuation betting?:
    Morning all,  So my origional question was going to be 'When should i continuation AK?' as if i raise pre, get a caller and then the flop is low/mid. I conti bet 1/2 pot and I get insta called for the turn to be a blank and i check to there all in!  But in reflection, the true question would be 'when should i be continuation betting?'  I completely understand the relevance of conti betting on a dry board and not a wet one, but i still find the flat call from the villian to shove the river.  Any advise would be great :)
    Posted by Waddell93
    I'm still developing myself, so I wouldn't take my answer as gospel - but I'll offer my advice.

    I think you pretty much said it all in your message actually. You make a continuation bet if you're the initial raiser, and the board is relatively dry on the flop. A continuation bet on a wet flop is possible, but much less common actually. It is also important to take the number of players in the pot into consideration and if your continuation bet is for value or a bluff. Even if you just have A high, that could still be for value if you think you're ahead - which most of the time on a flop like 249 rainbow, you will be.

    If your continuation bet is called, it is possible to bet again on the turn for a double-barrel, but you should be re-evaluating on each street.

    If your opponent is shoving on the river, chances are they have something - so it really depends on what you have as to whether you call or not. Don't just call on the hope they are bluffing (I was previously doing this a lot, and it rarely works!)
  • Phantom66Phantom66 Member Posts: 5,542
    edited October 2013
    In Response to When should I be continuation betting?:
    Morning all,  So my origional question was going to be 'When should i continuation AK?' as if i raise pre, get a caller and then the flop is low/mid. I conti bet 1/2 pot and I get insta called for the turn to be a blank and i check to there all in!  But in reflection, the true question would be 'when should i be continuation betting?'  I completely understand the relevance of conti betting on a dry board and not a wet one, but i still find the flat call from the villian to shove the river.  Any advise would be great :)
    Posted by Waddell93
    I think it is a much more useful tactic when in a tournament and you can pick up 5+BB's and that is a meaningful amount compared to stack size.

    As well as being board dependent it is also very player dependant. Don't cbet calling stations when you have A-high post flop. Good aggressive players will also start testing you out if they see you c-betting a lot - either reraising when they have nothing themselves or calling then betting if you slow down on the turn.

    In general on a low stakes cash table it wont get you very far as you will get called down by all-sorts. C-betting a missed AK raise is effectively a bluff. A-high might be good and if another card comes that you hit then you may have just overtaken your opponent but may find it hard to get paid.

    Another point is that c-betting generally works better when you have raised over a limper, rather than open raising and getting called. In the former you should have the better range of preflop holdings - the reverse is normally true in the latter situation.

    As well as these general points it pays to observe what your opponents are opening with / calling raises with/ putting up a fight post-flop with. Some players will call down every street with bottom pair, some players will fold to any show of post flop strength if they have missed. Good players will be adjusting all the time to what you are doing.

  • Waddell93Waddell93 Member Posts: 56
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: When should I be continuation betting?:
    In Response to When should I be continuation betting? : I'm still developing myself, so I wouldn't take my answer as gospel - but I'll offer my advice. I think you pretty much said it all in your message actually. You make a continuation bet if you're the initial raiser, and the board is relatively dry on the flop. A continuation bet on a wet flop is possible, but much less common actually. It is also important to take the number of players in the pot into consideration and if your continuation bet is for value or a bluff. Even if you just have A high, that could still be for value if you think you're ahead - which most of the time on a flop like 249 rainbow, you will be. If your continuation bet is called, it is possible to bet again on the turn for a double-barrel, but you should be re-evaluating on each street. If your opponent is shoving on the river, chances are they have something - so it really depends on what you have as to whether you call or not. Don't just call on the hope they are bluffing (I was previously doing this a lot, and it rarely works!)
    Posted by peter27
    ************
    Thankyou for your post,

    I have found that doing what i said and you agreeing, seems to be killing my stack. so therefore the tight agreesive stance that i want, can only ever last as long as im NOT conti betting. (hope that make sense) 
  • GELDYGELDY Member Posts: 5,203
    edited October 2013
    c-betting is a required skill
    so if it isn't working tighten up a bit sure - ie dry boards, only one oppo - until you get more comfortable with it

    i didn't c-bet live the other day and i had AA
    but my utg raise had been called by 5 others, and the board was very wet
    i wasn't putting another chip in as any bet would likely lead to a shove which i would not want to call 
  • peter27peter27 Member Posts: 1,634
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: When should I be continuation betting?:
    In Response to Re: When should I be continuation betting? : ************ Thankyou for your post, I have found that doing what i said and you agreeing, seems to be killing my stack. so therefore the tight agreesive stance that i want, can only ever last as long as im NOT conti betting. (hope that make sense) 
    Posted by Waddell93
    That's interesting, over how many games have you been using this technique?
  • Waddell93Waddell93 Member Posts: 56
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: When should I be continuation betting?:
    In Response to Re: When should I be continuation betting? : That's interesting, over how many games have you been using this technique?
    Posted by peter27
    **************
    Thats really a hard question to answer Peter. I guess i start by saying that for the last 2/3 months i have took a $2000 down swing on ps. The missus was not impressed and seggested i sign up to sky poker to change the site and hopefully change my swing" (hence the basic questions i have been asking on the forums) 

    The truth is I am questioning my own play more than i ever had before. However i am finding that in live poker im still running good. So, if you can understand that the play i discribed is a result of my questioning my own skill and therefore trying to mix it up and become proftable online. 

    As always i am trying to develop my game and learn how to change my bad plays! I have just read a skypoker article about playing the micro stakes. I found it refreshing and tbh a **** good starting point for me to start to build my online roll again.
  • peter27peter27 Member Posts: 1,634
    edited October 2013
    In Response to Re: When should I be continuation betting?:
    In Response to Re: When should I be continuation betting? : ************** Thats really a hard question to answer Peter. I guess i start by saying that for the last 2/3 months i have took a $2000 down swing on ps. The missus was not impressed and seggested i sign up to sky poker to change the site and hopefully change my swing" (hence the basic questions i have been asking on the forums)  The truth is I am questioning my own play more than i ever had before. However i am finding that in live poker im still running good. So, if you can understand that the play i discribed is a result of my questioning my own skill and therefore trying to mix it up and become proftable online.  As always i am trying to develop my game and learn how to change my bad plays! I have just read a skypoker article about playing the micro stakes. I found it refreshing and tbh a **** good starting point for me to start to build my online roll again.
    Posted by Waddell93
    Funny you should say this, check my thread here. Simmilar situation to you, maybe you need to do something like this? It worked for me!

    Back to the original topic, I had a continuation bet work very well this morning:
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    cranny Small blind   15.00 15.00 1395.00
    Stramash00 Big blind   30.00 45.00 1320.00
      Your hole cards
    • Q
    • K
         
    jmarsh Call   30.00 75.00 1260.00
    AndyWales Fold        
    BHF Call   30.00 105.00 1575.00
    peter27 Raise   90.00 195.00 1590.00
    cranny Fold        
    Stramash00 Call   60.00 255.00 1260.00
    jmarsh Call   60.00 315.00 1200.00
    BHF Call   60.00 375.00 1515.00
    Flop
       
    • A
    • 3
    • 3
         
    Stramash00 Check        
    jmarsh Check        
    BHF Check        
    peter27 Bet   187.50 562.50 1402.50
    Stramash00 Fold        
    jmarsh Fold        
    BHF Fold        
    peter27 Muck        
    peter27 Win   375.00   1777.50
    peter27 Return   187.50 0.00 1965.00
  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited October 2013
    This is one of the reasons we wanna be playing as many of our hands in position as possible, then we get the option to checkback a flop knowing they've already checked or bet if we want to.

    We want to be balanced with our cbets meaning we dont wanna just cbet when we hit a really nice flop and check when we dont, but at first and at the low stakes I'd focus more on just how a flop will connect with their range of hands.

    For instance if you raise AK and we have position, they check to us on 9TJ. Now this flop smashes the range people like to call with pre... the chances they have at least 1pr, or a king or an 8 for an open ended straight draw is very high, whereas we can checkback knowing we have 2 overcards to potnetially make a better 1pr hand AND a gutshot to make the nut straight. On the other side of the coin, if we raise AK and they check to us on 339, it's very hard for them to have many hands that they'll continue with so we'll get ALOT more folds and even when we do get called it's alot more likely we are still ahead against people who don't wanna fold such a dry flop with AQ/KQ/KJ/AJ etc.
  • chicknMeltchicknMelt Member Posts: 1,159
    edited October 2013
    Its not as simple as cbet dry boards and dont cbet wet ones...you should be thinking about what types of cards your oppnent could hold (putting them on a range) as well as thinking about what they think you could have.

    Once you are putting people on ranges you can work out pretty easily if you should c-bet alot of the time...eg, if a flop its your percieved range harder than it hits theirs its probably a good cbet spot. likewise, if it hits their percieved range harder its probably a bad spot for a cbet.

    edit: Lambert's post is a good example of this...
  • F_IvanovicF_Ivanovic Member Posts: 2,412
    edited October 2013
    Replied a while ago... or attempted to before I was logged out!

    Anyway c-betting has been covered mostly. However, c-betting is not just a one off thing. If you always fire c-bets but then give up on the turn when you don't hit you're going to be very easy to play against. So sometimes you will want to fire 2 c-bets (flop/turn) commonly called a 2 barrel. And occasionally you will want to fire 3 barrels. Obviously the more times you fire the stronger your range should be. And when we're bluffing we should mostly be doing so with some equity (common ones being flush/straight draws)

    Against some players though and particularly in tournaments it is often best to just fire 1 and give up if called (without having a hand that has good equity) - since our stack in tournaments is important we want to preserve it and so generally people don't float flop/call flop wide if they're then folding a lot on the turn.
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