bounty hunter, stone bubble, AQ about 16bb deep. LP station suddenly click 3b's

The_Don90

Some background. This is the stone bubble. We're about average stack. Literally slap bang in the midfield. 

We've been relativley active, not overly, but probably not aggressive enough. Table is extremely passive thus i decided not to aggro up at this stage as i would on some. 

Villian is probably one of the biggest stations I've played in a bh tbh. He joined the table around 20 orbits ago, since then hes been in over 2 thirds of the pot, i haven't seen him raise once. 

In hindsight i think that makes an open jam the better option in the first place here, but would like some feedback as played, how do we proceed from here. 

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
angelofthe	Small blind		300.00	300.00	11027.50
x	Big blind		600.00	900.00	11877.50
	Your hole cards	Q A
krstov	Fold
adair333	Fold
The_Don90	Raise		1200.00	2100.00	8537.50
angelofthe	Fold
x	Raise		1200.00	3300.00	10677.50
The_Don90

Lambert180

Open jam isn't bad.

The way you've described the player it looks like an easy fold. Really passive player who never raises click3bets you... you're probably lucky if you're flipping.

GELDY

yeuk

good chance you're flipping at best, not something you want to do on the bubble

peeling would be ok if deeper, particularly with position, but you don't have the chips

so a sigh fold is maybe best

as for open jam - fine in many cases - but here you actually want the calling station to put more into the pot. you have position and a great starting hand after all - and you have seen a lot of how he plays postflop

F_Ivanovic

Open jamming 16BB's is just way too much. Obv can't be too bad with our holding but anything weaker and it probably becomes bad. I think folding is fine..

Also your thinking is somewhat backward... you say table is extremely passive and thus the reason for you not "aggro'ing up".... this type of table is perfect for playing aggressive since you easily know where you are in pots and won't be faced with tough decisions.

craigcu12

In Response to Re: bounty hunter, stone bubble, AQ about 16bb deep. LP station suddenly click 3b's:

Open jamming 16BB's is just way too much. Obv can't be too bad with our holding but anything weaker and it probably becomes bad. I think folding is fine.. Also your thinking is somewhat backward... you say table is extremely passive and thus the reason for you not "aggro'ing up".... this type of table is perfect for playing aggressive since you easily know where you are in pots and won't be faced with tough decisions.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

no it's true what the don says, if his table is the passive type that is when being over aggressive can become big trouble.
when a passive villain calls don 90 is then left questioning what that villain will have so really would need to hit good post flop as bluffs are much more dangerous.

the only time that weak passive play can provide us to go over aggressive is if the villain is a weak tight.

The_Don90

Sigh i have to write this again.

In responce to F Ivanovic. I want to go into more detail so we can discuss thought process if possible. 

when i said passive table, i mean i think when i open pre my standard raise is around a min raise to 2.3x, i find that this table was getting multiple callers. Post flop they just hated folding too. Thus I decided to "nit up". I say nit up, i wasn't just waiting for hand, but i was trying to spot select. I had tryed adjusting my open sizing a little to try and get more for value hands, unfortunetly i don't think we can do that with our stack and really it wasn't making much differance so i just re-adjusted and went back to my normal standard open sizing. At these levels is almost always just a min for me. 

As for the Open jam theory. Basically the logic behind that is that its a bounty hunter, people love to call for a head. My head at the present time of this hand was 4 heads taken at min price so basically its worth 5 heads. Its on the bubble i admit so this does cancel some of the calling lighter theory out, but my heads worth a fiver and both blinds have us covered. We have a good hand v most calling ranges, and if they bust me its basically a tenner (head + guarenteed min cash) + 9k chips in pocket and stack. I know again this is the bubble and most people tighten up, although this hasn't really been the case on this table. 

I personally like the open jam in hindsight but im not saying its right, and I've posted this hand for discussion, you mentioned thought process(backwards thinking) in your post and i feel that is a weak spot of mine in most cases. Thus I would like to discuss what seem like basic decisions further so i can develop my thought process if you don't mind. 

Thanks  

F_Ivanovic

ok that makes sense. (re. passive villains)

Going back to open jamming there's no doubt it will be +ev. Whilst they may very well call shoves with KQ/AJ/AT where you are in fantastic shape they are also going to be calling with all their pocket pairs - and we'll be flipping a lot. If I had a read where they would call a shove with any ace and any broadway cards then shoving probably becomes massively ev+

That being said min-r or even limping OTB can both be really +ev here especially vs someone who you described as a massive calling station post flop. In fact limping might be slightly preferable since we keep the SPR bigger when we limp and against a player that struggles to fold we do better whent the SPR is bigger. Occasionally we'll get a flop of Q62 and he'll have 62 and we'll go broke but more often than not when we flop top pair and our opponent calls us down with 2nd/TPbk and we pick up a ton of chips.

I mean everyone likes getting it in as a 70% fave pre which could happen a lot when we shove with AQ (although even vs a wide calling range we're prob on average 60% equity faves) but when you have such a big edge against your opponents it can be more profitable to play post flop poker. If we were on 13bbs or less then I think open jamming suddenly becomes a lot better.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: bounty hunter, stone bubble, AQ about 16bb deep. LP station suddenly click 3b's:

ok that makes sense. (re. passive villains) Going back to open jamming there's no doubt it will be +ev. Whilst they may very well call shoves with KQ/AJ/AT where you are in fantastic shape they are also going to be calling with all their pocket pairs - and we'll be flipping a lot. If I had a read where they would call a shove with any ace and any broadway cards then shoving probably becomes massively ev+ That being said min-r or even limping OTB can both be really +ev here especially vs someone who you described as a massive calling station post flop. In fact limping might be slightly preferable since we keep the SPR bigger when we limp and against a player that struggles to fold we do better whent the SPR is bigger. Occasionally we'll get a flop of Q62 and he'll have 62 and we'll go broke but more often than not when we flop top pair and our opponent calls us down with 2nd/TPbk and we pick up a ton of chips. I mean everyone likes getting it in as a 70% fave pre which could happen a lot when we shove with AQ (although even vs a wide calling range we're prob on average 60% equity faves) but when you have such a big edge against your opponents it can be more profitable to play post flop poker. If we were on 13bbs or less then I think open jamming suddenly becomes a lot better.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

You've changed your tune!

Given reads, it's probably a reluctant sigh fold. Though raise folding the button with AQ is pretty dirty, but if villain is gonna play his cards face up then needs must. From the brief description, villain doesn't strike me as a thinking player, so whereas you'd go to town with AQ in this spot most times, this looks like a spot to avoid.

Forgot to add, but limping is far and away the worst option. Quite surprised to see it even mentioned to be honest!

The_Don90

ty for a good responce F Ivanovic. Lots makes perfect sense. I think I'm now getting to an ability level where i feel i am beating these games, but spots like this I still think slightly backwards and im likee but i have AQ and im on the button f you.

DrRunGood

you have said yourself how the player plays you make a read on a player so stick by your opinion if he hasn't raised in 20 orbits this is an easy fold as he has got to be super strong to make raise going by your read.
its that read to get away from this hand that will give you the edge over this player

The_Don90

Since its only 600 to call, is calling horrific and assessing and taking our edge post flop? 

GELDY

In Response to Re: bounty hunter, stone bubble, AQ about 16bb deep. LP station suddenly click 3b's:

Since its only 600 to call, is calling horrific and assessing and taking our edge post flop? 
Posted by The_Don90

if you were deeper maybe - but you want to conserve your chips as much as possible with your stack

and if his range is AA/KK/QQ/AK how many flops you hit are you going to like other than KJT

and he may just bet/shove any flop

and you are on the bubble

so just don't think it is worth it

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: bounty hunter, stone bubble, AQ about 16bb deep. LP station suddenly click 3b's:

In Response to Re: bounty hunter, stone bubble, AQ about 16bb deep. LP station suddenly click 3b's : You've changed your tune! Given reads, it's probably a reluctant sigh fold. Though raise folding the button with AQ is pretty dirty, but if villain is gonna play his cards face up then needs must. From the brief description, villain doesn't strike me as a thinking player, so whereas you'd go to town with AQ in this spot most times, this looks like a spot to avoid. Forgot to add, but limping is far and away the worst option. Quite surprised to see it even mentioned to be honest!
Posted by hhyftrftdr

Haha. Like I said situation and villain dependant. If we know someone will call a shove with massively dominating hands for 13bb's then getting it in pre is fine especially in a BH.

Also can you explain why limping is the worst option? Since they're defending v-wide we get no fold equity. Yes. he'll put in more money with a worse hand but never a THAT much worse hand. Our profit is going to come from them from their inability to play post flop well so may as well give ourselves as high SPR postflop as possible.

TeddyBloat

I dont understand why a high spr is  beneficial here. Id have thought we want a low spr so we can gii if we we hit. aQ is a pretty hot or cold type hand post flop. Im not disagreeing, just dont understand, lol.

Could you expand on that please mate.

Cheers, 

TEDDY

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: bounty hunter, stone bubble, AQ about 16bb deep. LP station suddenly click 3b's:

In Response to Re: bounty hunter, stone bubble, AQ about 16bb deep. LP station suddenly click 3b's : Haha. Like I said situation and villain dependant. If we know someone will call a shove with massively dominating hands for 13bb's then getting it in pre is fine especially in a BH. Also can you explain why limping is the worst option? Since they're defending v-wide we get no fold equity. Yes. he'll put in more money with a worse hand but never a THAT much worse hand. Our profit is going to come from them from their inability to play post flop well so may as well give ourselves as high SPR postflop as possible.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Come on Ivan, do you really need me to explain why limping AQ on the button with 16bb is poor play?! 

Lambert180

In Response to Re: bounty hunter, stone bubble, AQ about 16bb deep. LP station suddenly click 3b's:

In Response to Re: bounty hunter, stone bubble, AQ about 16bb deep. LP station suddenly click 3b's : Haha. Like I said situation and villain dependant. If we know someone will call a shove with massively dominating hands for 13bb's then getting it in pre is fine especially in a BH. Also can you explain why limping is the worst option? Since they're defending v-wide we get no fold equity. Yes. he'll put in more money with a worse hand but never a THAT much worse hand. Our profit is going to come from them from their inability to play post flop well so may as well give ourselves as high SPR postflop as possible.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Never THAT worse a hand if he's defending wide. So he won't defend A2-AJ and KQ/QJ/QT/Q9 which we absolutely crush?

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: bounty hunter, stone bubble, AQ about 16bb deep. LP station suddenly click 3b's:

In Response to Re: bounty hunter, stone bubble, AQ about 16bb deep. LP station suddenly click 3b's : Never THAT worse a hand if he's defending wide. So he won't defend A2-AJ and KQ/QJ/QT/Q9 which we absolutely crush?
Posted by Lambert180

Yes he will defend them hands but he will also go broke with them anyway if we limp in and both flop a piece.

The only value in raising pre that I see is getting him to fold his complete trash hands that still have 33% equity vs us. And what does that get us? 1.5bb. Hardly going to change our tournament situation that much going from 16bb to 17.5bb. Whereas we can pick up his whole stack if we flop TP and he flops TP as well. We even pick up a lot when he calls down 2 streets with 2nd/3rd pair.

Yes hhyftdr I'd be enlighightend to know why limping pre-flop is bad in this situation. Worst case scenario(s) - he stacks us post flop with a hand he would have folded to a pfr - or we limp and have to fold post-flop losing 1bb. 1bb really isn't that much on a table that's going to pay you off post-flop when you hit. Winning 1.5bb on a good table though I'm always more than happy with so there I obviously would never want to limp AQ OTB.

hhyftrftdr

In Response to Re: bounty hunter, stone bubble, AQ about 16bb deep. LP station suddenly click 3b's:

In Response to Re: bounty hunter, stone bubble, AQ about 16bb deep. LP station suddenly click 3b's : Yes he will defend them hands but he will also go broke with them anyway if we limp in and both flop a piece. The only value in raising pre that I see is getting him to fold his complete trash hands that still have 33% equity vs us. And what does that get us? 1.5bb. Hardly going to change our tournament situation that much going from 16bb to 17.5bb. Whereas we can pick up his whole stack if we flop TP and he flops TP as well. We even pick up a lot when he calls down 2 streets with 2nd/3rd pair. Yes hhyftdr I'd be enlighightend to know why limping pre-flop is bad in this situation. Worst case scenario(s) - he stacks us post flop with a hand he would have folded to a pfr - or we limp and have to fold post-flop losing 1bb. 1bb really isn't that much on a table that's going to pay you off post-flop when you hit. Winning 1.5bb on a good table though I'm always more than happy with so there I obviously would never want to limp AQ OTB.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Nuff said. Digging our own poker grave.

gazza127

SIIIIIIIGGGGHHHHHHHH

I just wrote a mega long post.  Put a bit of time interrogating others thought processes aswell as yours and sky decided to log me out and i lost it!

Suppose it can all be summed up by one word:

Fold.


FAO Ivanovic:

Limp = bad.



Sigh.

F_Ivanovic

In Response to Re: bounty hunter, stone bubble, AQ about 16bb deep. LP station suddenly click 3b's:

In Response to Re: bounty hunter, stone bubble, AQ about 16bb deep. LP station suddenly click 3b's : Nuff said. Digging our own poker grave.
Posted by hhyftrftdr

And how often is that going to happen? Answer: Extremely rarely. Say he folds 25o to a pfr and the flop is A25.. we lose our stack. But the flop could also come A59. And he might well call 2 bets with bottom pair. 

Since villain is defending 75% of hands a min-r is just not going to work enough of the time to be +ev. Nor is a c-bet post-flop because of villains propensity to call. So we basically need to just value town him at every oppertunity - and higher SPR's work best in value towning someone.

Balance isn't going to be all that important but against someone just really bad post I'm going to want to be playing a lot of hands with them in position. And so I don't just want to raise a tight range - I want to be seeing flops with all sorts of good playable hands. 

Do we raise 22-55 OTB here btw? If we raise 55 we're not really going to be giving ourselves good odds to setmine. And with these hands set-mining/cheap showdown is the only thing we're interested in vs this villain. So basically we're going to have to be raise/giving up way too much post-flop for the pfr with 55 to be profitable. 

gazza127

In Response to Re: bounty hunter, stone bubble, AQ about 16bb deep. LP station suddenly click 3b's:

In Response to Re: bounty hunter, stone bubble, AQ about 16bb deep. LP station suddenly click 3b's : And how often is that going to happen? Answer: Extremely rarely. Say he folds 25o to a pfr and the flop is A25.. we lose our stack. But the flop could also come A59. And he might well call 2 bets with bottom pair.  Since villain is defending 75% of hands a min-r is just not going to work enough of the time to be +ev. Nor is a c-bet post-flop because of villains propensity to call. So we basically need to just value town him at every oppertunity - and higher SPR's work best in value towning someone. Balance isn't going to be all that important but against someone just really bad post I'm going to want to be playing a lot of hands with them in position. And so I don't just want to raise a tight range - I want to be seeing flops with all sorts of good playable hands.  Do we raise 22-55 OTB here btw? If we raise 55 we're not really going to be giving ourselves good odds to setmine. And with these hands set-mining/cheap showdown is the only thing we're interested in vs this villain. So basically we're going to have to be raise/giving up way too much post-flop for the pfr with 55 to be profitable. 
Posted by F_Ivanovic

Don't like any of this tbh.

Ofc we raise 55 - raise of fold anyway.  Do I really need to explain why limping in with a range of hands just cause we want to see a flop is really bad?