Need advice

golds95

Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
tyger	Small blind		400.00	400.00	15715.00
golds95	Big blind		800.00	1200.00	24635.00
	Your hole cards	K 8
FLATCAPBIL	Fold
wesntrey	Fold
mullberry	Raise		2400.00	3600.00	52588.00
AJ_Rockets	Fold
tyger	Fold
golds95	Call		1600.00	5200.00	23035.00
Flop
		5 2 6
golds95	Check
mullberry	All-in		52588.00	57788.00	0.00
golds95	All-in		23035.00	80823.00	0.00
mullberry	Unmatched bet		29553.00	51270.00	29553.00
golds95	Show	K 8
mullberry	Show	7 7
Turn
		2
River
		5
mullberry	Win	Two Pairs, 7s and 5s	51270.00		80823.00

golds95

should i just always be folding this hand?

gazza127

Bin the hand pre.  You're likely to be OOP, having missed... or possibly worse holding TPNK or TP with a K kicker, not knowing where you are in the hand.  Flush is the only hand you can get carried away with baring a miracle K8x flop.

He overshoves the flop for 10x the pot, which is pretty meh - he has something no doubt.  You could argue that if you are calling pre with K8s then this is one of the flops you are looking for, but you don't have the nut draw - you dont know if you K or 8 are even live... find a better spot IMO.

You have 30bb if you fold here.... although i'd recommend just folding pre so you dont get caught in awkward spots like this.

golds95

In Response to Re: Need advice:

Bin the hand pre.  You're likely to be OOP, having missed... or possibly worse holding TPNK or TP with a K kicker, not knowing where you are in the hand.  Flush is the only hand you can get carried away with baring a miracle K8x flop. He overshoves the flop for 10x the pot, which is pretty meh - he has something no doubt.  You could argue that if you are calling pre with K8s then this is one of the flops you are looking for, but you don't have the nut draw - you dont know if you K or 8 are even live... find a better spot IMO. You have 30bb if you fold here.... although i'd recommend just folding pre so you dont get caught in awkward spots like this.
Posted by gazza127

Yeah thanks exactly what i thought just got carried away with a chance to double up with at least 9 outs twice over, oh well you live and learn sated in for £3 so not to much of loss dissapointing way to go out though.

NColley

Its usually a fold pre, can 3bet vs players that open lots

I wouldn't fold after calling pre, would of been check/raising all in. When he shoves he never has a very strong and, I'd suggest bad players will ship like this with lots of hand they shouldn't.. such as AQ, AJ, even JT that we can have 15 outs vs. Generally gonna have between 40-60% equity often.

Even though we made a mistake pre, we should still take the correct decision when we flop good equity.

grantorino

Fold or 3b pre

I think flop is prob a fold, must be close though. I c/r and get it in if he bets small

hhyftrftdr

I don't like calling off here. If we could see the cards, and thus just how much equity we have, then fair enough. Had he done a 'normal' cbet then a check raise all in would be pretty standard and at least we would be using the power of our stack for maximum fold equity. If we get called we have outs, but we can also get the shove through and not even have to see a turn or river. We simply lose that option when we have to call off with it.

It turns out we are in decent shape, but how often will that be the case? We are calling off our tournament whilst not even holding the nut flush draw. 

Just fold pre I think, look for a better spot.

golds95

Understand i should fold pre but as soon as im in the hand should i be calling?

F_Ivanovic

Nothing worse then when you have a really good check/raise spot and the opponent goes and overbet shoves into you!! Being results orientated we could say this is a flop you might want to oberbet jam yourself! But realistically we should only consider this if we've seen opponent continually making this type of play - this way we at least give ourselves some fold equity. That being said he probably isn't folding many of the hands he just overbetjams the flop with. Even AK/AQ probably spite call.

Anyway, as played folding is going to be best overall but if you think getting a big chip stack is going to give you a massive chance of going really far in the tournament (ie. you can use your chip stack to bully other players around and pick up loads of pots uncontested) then calling may well be best here. If, however, you're comfortable with the stack size you have atm (i know you play lots of HU with stack size/to BB like your stack here so I guess you're OK with this stack size) then folding now is good.

BorinLoner

If this were a cash game you could probably make an argument for the call being marginally +EV before rake.

We have 45% pot odds and, assuming the villain doesn't just shove his AA, KK or sets here, we have about 45% equity against one-pair hands. Of course some of the time he could have draws and only one of those beats us. Against the rest we're a favourite.


However in a tournament, when we can't rebuy or reload, the value of chips in our stack is actually greater than the value of chips elsewhere on the table. So while the call may be marginally +cEV it will very likely be -EV...

...unless you agree with the meta-game points F_Ivanovic has made.

golds95

In Response to Re: Need advice:

Nothing worse then when you have a really good check/raise spot and the opponent goes and overbet shoves into you!! Being results orientated we could say this is a flop you might want to oberbet jam yourself! But realistically we should only consider this if we've seen opponent continually making this type of play - this way we at least give ourselves some fold equity. That being said he probably isn't folding many of the hands he just overbetjams the flop with. Even AK/AQ probably spite call. Anyway, as played folding is going to be best overall but if you think getting a big chip stack is going to give you a massive chance of going really far in the tournament (ie. you can use your chip stack to bully other players around and pick up loads of pots uncontested) then calling may well be best here. If, however, you're comfortable with the stack size you have atm (i know you play lots of HU with stack size/to BB like your stack here so I guess you're OK with this stack size) then folding now is good.
Posted by F_Ivanovic

He done it twice before on dry boards so thought that he could have been doing it again as previous times i or someone else on the table folded thought he was trying to exploit the table as we were quite conservative and not calling down the streets. I'm still dissapointed that i put my tourney life on the line like that in my second main event, both thorugh all in sats lol