Set over set? Any advice would be welcome.

izzysteer

Hi everyone,

I would just like to know whether anybody has or should fold sets. 

The way the betting went preflop, combined with knowing that Donttelmum wouldn't make extremely loose preflop calls made it seem likely that like me he had a pocket pair. When he raised I actually put him on a set of fours and I really considered folding. 

I have been kicking myself for not going with my better judgement. Would you and should you ever fold in a similar situation?

liamboi11	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£19.90
Dolphin28	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£17.08
	Your hole cards	2 2
izzysteer	Raise		£0.60	£0.90	£33.17
Donttelmum	Call		£0.60	£1.50	£29.33
TheFall1	Call		£0.60	£2.10	£6.04
liamboi11	Raise		£2.70	£4.80	£17.20
Dolphin28	Call		£2.60	£7.40	£14.48
izzysteer	Call		£2.20	£9.60	£30.97
Donttelmum	Call		£2.20	£11.80	£27.13
TheFall1	Fold
Flop
		J 2 4
liamboi11	Bet		£5.90	£17.70	£11.30
Dolphin28	Fold
izzysteer	Call		£5.90	£23.60	£25.07
Donttelmum	Raise		£11.80	£35.40	£15.33
liamboi11	Fold
izzysteer	All-in		£25.07	£60.47	£0.00
Donttelmum	All-in		£15.33	£75.80	£0.00
izzysteer	Unmatched bet		£3.84	£71.96	£3.84
izzysteer	Show	2 2
Donttelmum	Show	J J
Turn
		A
River
		5
Donttelmum	Win	Three Jacks	£70.16		£70.16

Lambert180

In Response to Set over set? Any advice would be welcome.:

knowing that Donttelmum wouldn't make extremely loose preflop calls

FYP lol.

This is a pretty puke spot. It's wierd cos I don't understand why DTM would ever raise a set on this flop cos it's just SO dry so he basically has to hope you have an underset or QQ+ and are willing to stack off.

He's never bluffing in this spot and I can't see a single worse value hand he'd take this line with but it's hard to fold sets. Folding is probably best as disgusting as it sounds.... I still probably don't do it in-game tho lol.

izzysteer

"knowing that Donttelmum wouldn't make extremely loose preflop calls" Sorry, I meant to say not in this spot with someone reraises out of postion and loads of callers.

I agree I should have folded and I'm really quite annoyed with myself that I ignored the alarm bells going off in my head.

Lambert180

Yeah in future I think you can fold in this kinda situation with bottom set v DTM. When you have 44 though, it's basically flipping a coin whether he has JJ or 22.

He should 100% be flatting the flop though

gazza127

This spot is pretty disgusting.  As soon as the flop comes you must me fist pumping expecting to get a decent sized pot.... then DTM raises on one of THE driest boards after significant action both pre and on the flop.  Hes never doing this as a bluff... seems ridiculous to think so and he simply cant do this with a draw as there arent really any! Seems silly to believe hes doing this with a bare J after the action hes seen preflop.

I think your lucky for him to raise here as it does give you a chance to get away.  I'd be surprised him doing this with a set, but nothing else really makes any sense.

I think we can make the ultimate sigh fold here.

The--Don

You lost set over set.

You're pretty much always going to lose your stack in this spot.

Just take your medicine. Players at this limit are going to play overpairs similarly and just generally do dumb things.

When I get a set, I'm looking for ways to get all the money in, not reasons to fold.

Talon

  For me folding is an option in this hand but not on the flop. As played you have to go broke on that flop. But there is a case for folding preflop.

  If we look at the stack sizes of the people involved before you make the call preflop they are not really deep enough for you to profitably set mine against. You will only hit 1 in 7 times and with the stacks involved at this stage you would have to get fully paid off when you do hit every single time to make it worthwhile. When playing a hand like 22 you will either smash the flop or have to fold to any bet on the flop because the flop will always contain overs when you miss.

  So for me. Folding preflop is an option but never on that flop.

The_Don90

I actually agree with Lambert and Gazza. I was expecting to come here and be lik get your money in having seen thread title, having seen the hand though, WOW just WOW. 

Fwiw pre i think i just fold. Dont think we're getting good odds on a setmine v the stacks in play so far, and virtually would need to stack both i think to make it wortwhile, that isnt going to happen enough. IMO. 

Ignoring DTMs very strange line thats important. 

The strange thing is DTM under reps his hand pre, and n the flop suddenly goes nuts on the driest board possible. Now in game im not saying i fold, on sky we have 15 seconds to make a decision which means i puke even more, and really this is a spot where we need a timebank to disect the hand in our head. 

When we play it back in our head though, and look at this line, we can put in overpairs in his range, If im honest i dont have jacks in his range either though. But i think 4's are a massive part of his range. And annoyingly therefore i think its a fold. His range is just do narrow. Because hes never ever bluffing he just has to have a set. Theres not even any two pair combos in his range to lean us the other way. 

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Set over set? Any advice would be welcome.:

if u had a set of jacks tho u wouldnt raise the flop u would norm just call   so the raise was wellplayed  qq kk would still play the same way and ace jack imo  ya just cant fold 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

Look at pre, he never has KK/QQ and i dont think he ever has AJ either.

Fwiw i dont include Jacks in his range without seeing the result. 

I think his range in my head is literally isolated to 4's. I know they say its wrong to put someone on a range of 1 hand, but thats literally what ive done here. 

Alsao fwiw i dont think i fold without a timebank. As I've obviously had time to break the hand down here to come to my range. 

Lambert180

DTM NEVER EVER has QQ+ here... EVER, and I think the same could be said of pretty much every single reg at the level. There's potential he flats the first raise if it's a really aggro table so he can do the old back-raise, but never ever to flat, then flat a 3bet knowing he's going 4way minimum, maybe 5way.... never ever ever ever.

On this flop it's a set, and that's it.

Like I said in my first reply, whether I can make the fold in-game is another matter, but this is an absolute stone wall fold when you have more than 10 seconds to think about it.

You've also gotta think about what he thinks he'd get value from. We're discussing fold a set to his line, so how on earth can he raise 1pr (QQ+) and expect to get called by worse?

simonnatur

In Response to Re: Set over set? Any advice would be welcome.:

DTM NEVER EVER has QQ+ here... EVER, and I think the same could be said of pretty much every single reg at the level. There's potential he flats the first raise if it's a really aggro table so he can do the old back-raise, but never ever to flat, then flat a 3bet knowing he's going 4way minimum, maybe 5way.... never ever ever ever. On this flop it's a set, and that's it. Like I said in my first reply, whether I can make the fold in-game is another matter, but this is an absolute stone wall fold when you have more than 10 seconds to think about it. You've also gotta think about what he thinks he'd get value from. We're discussing fold a set to his line, so how on earth can he raise 1pr (QQ+) and expect to get called by worse?
Posted by Lambert180

Lambo nails it, DTM's modus operandi is to shovel the money in with the nuts and he STILL gets paid by poor souls who know no better. Not saying even in this spot it's easy to let go of your hand once you get to the flop, but you will never ever be given an easier spot to do it.

For me the mistake is mostly pre flop. Why make life hard for yourself with a hand that's gonna be tough to play out of position?. Deffo a fold when raised - burning money to put 13 or w/e bb in with it imo 

GELDY

fold pre

all day every day twice on sundays

not only are we not really getting the odds to setmine, but with all that action there is a good chance of other pairs seeing the flop, increasing the chance that we won't be good even if we hit

post flop liamboi leads into the multiway pot, and finds the fold to the clickback

so difficult to do with a set, but it is bottom set in a multiway aggro pot

i guess the Sky analysts would say that making that fold is the sign of a very good player

not to say that failing to do so is not......

RyanC7

Don't like folding any pair pre 6 handed - especially at 20nl lol. Played the hand fine until you went all in lol.

Easy fold. The only thing you can ever beat is a misclick. 

IDCU never seems to amaze me. This is not being results orientated if the cards were hidden I would 100% say DTM had 44.. JJ does surprise me. Also when a reg clicks it back - it is rarely a bluff imo they are doing it for a reason.

Certainly is tough to fold sets but DTM gives you all the correct reasons to do so here. 

Dry flops are good to v.good to bluff, but noone bluffs them because they are pooooosays and think they rep to thin a range and will always get called. No offense to DTM but I don't think he is EVER bluffing here.

Diminuendo

Its very hard to fold sets in many situations but this is DEFINITELY not one of them


THERE IS NO HAND DTM DOES THIS WITH THAT YOU BEAT and as for him raising flop with it i would just put that down to him playing too many tables and not having time to play hands optimally in some situations.

Ryan nailed it on the head when he said the only thing your ever beating here is a missclick.

GELDY

In Response to Re: Set over set? Any advice would be welcome.:

Don't like folding any pair pre 6 handed - especially at 20nl lol. Played the hand fine until you went all in lol. Easy fold. The only thing you can ever beat is a misclick.  IDCU never seems to amaze me. This is not being results orientated if the cards were hidden I would 100% say DTM had 44.. JJ does surprise me. Also when a reg clicks it back - it is rarely a bluff imo they are doing it for a reason. Certainly is tough to fold sets but DTM gives you all the correct reasons to do so here.  Dry flops are good to v.good to bluff, but noone bluffs them because they are pooooosays and think they rep to thin a range and will always get called. No offense to DTM but I don't think he is EVER bluffing here.
Posted by RyanC7

on the basis that you have increased odds of being able to stack someone making up for the lower stack to Bet ratio?