NL20 Line Check

iGoWaWa

Ignore result, guys obv been dropped on his head, but how s my line.

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceiGoWaWaSmall blind £0.10£0.10£62.49MAXSHADOWBig blind £0.20£0.30£50.88 Your hole cardsKK   DonttelmumFold    rancidFold    ChipsOToolRaise £0.60£0.90£34.16welshjamFold    iGoWaWaRaise £1.90£2.80£60.59MAXSHADOWFold    ChipsOToolCall £1.40£4.20£32.76Flop  36J   iGoWaWaBet £4.20£8.40£56.39ChipsOToolCall £4.20£12.60£28.56Turn  7   iGoWaWaBet £12.60£25.20£43.79ChipsOToolCall £12.60£37.80£15.96River  7   iGoWaWaAll-in £43.79£81.59£0.00ChipsOToolAll-in £15.96£97.55£0.00iGoWaWaUnmatched bet £27.83£69.72£27.83iGoWaWaShowKK   ChipsOToolShow5Q   ChipsOToolWinFlush to the Queen£67.92 £67.9

TheMarkOfJ

I'd probably bet flop smaller 3/4ish - do you bet the pot as a standard with your entire range?

Turn seems like the key to the hand - by potting it seems like we're probably getting called by stronger hands most of the time.

Prefer to bet flop 3/4 - check/call turn (as we have Kc)- check/decide river

I could be being abit weak/results orientated here, you're way of playing it may get max value from hands that contain a jack or the Ac. Interesting to have a look @ what everyone else thinks.

Ul anyways.

iGoWaWa

In Response to Re: NL20 Line Check:

I'd probably bet flop smaller 3/4ish - do you bet the pot as a standard with your entire range? Turn seems like the key to the hand - by potting it seems like we're probably getting called by stronger hands most of the time. Prefer to bet flop 3/4 - check/call turn (as we have Kc)- check/decide river I could be being abit weak/results orientated here, you're way of playing it may get max value from hands that contain a jack or the Ac. Interesting to have a look @ what everyone else thinks. Ul anyways.
Posted by TheMarkOfJ

Yea, i certainly play larger pots as much as i can vs villians.  I love the pot button

TheMarkOfJ

In Response to Re: NL20 Line Check:

In Response to Re: NL20 Line Check : Yea, i certainly play larger pots as much as i can vs villians.  I love the pot button
Posted by iGoWaWa

Cool seems ok then - just wasn't sure if it was one of those 'I have a big pair but there's a draw out there - I bet the pot!' kind of situations which could be noted and used against you

77Chris91

This bet sizing against even a decent 20nl reg is going to be super exploitable. It's not so bad against this particular villain if you have reads that he will call you down riddic light, but even inexperienced players aren't going to give you credit for many bluffs with a pot,pot,pot line so I think your only getting called by better hands a lot of the time.

Remember this guy, widen your 3-bet value range and just print money against him

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: NL20 Line Check:

This bet sizing against even a decent 20nl reg is going to be super exploitable. It's not so bad against this particular villain if you have reads that he will call you down riddic light, but even inexperienced players aren't going to give you credit for many bluffs with a pot,pot,pot line so I think your only getting called by better hands a lot of the time. Remember this guy, widen your 3-bet value range and just print money against him
Posted by 77Chris91

+1

This flop is actually really dry and we bet it as though there's a ton to protect against. If we had AQo, for example, we would like to be able to c-bet this flop as cheaply as possible. Since it's pretty unlikely to have hit the villain's peeling range, we'd probably like to bet half-pot or even less.

We'd also like to bet fairly small when we do have a big hand. If we have top-set here, we don't want to go lumping a full-pot bet in there because it's such a hard bet to call if the villain's holding a weak hand. We also can't induce the villain to bluff or semi-bluff with this big sizing.

Considering it's a 3-bet pot, we don't even need to bet the flop big in order to build the pot. We've already built it up considerably pre-flop.


All that said, we do actually get called on the flop by a hand we're beating and we presumably get called for this amount if the villain is holding just a Jack or some underpairs. If our bet-sizing is tailored to this opponent, then the flop bet is fine. However, we need to be wary that the flush comes in on the turn. At this stage, it's getting tough to be called down by those underpairs to the Jack (Particularly for such a large amount) and a lot of the hands that station us on the flop are the draws that just got there.


There was a mention of balancing our range earlier. If we are making our c-bet bluffs on this type of board as big as full-pot to balance against our made hands, it implies that we're 3-betting pre-flop with a very narrow range. Otherwise we're paying way too much to bluff. Having that unbalanced 3-betting range is going to be very exploitable for good players.

iGoWaWa

In Response to Re: NL20 Line Check:

In Response to Re: NL20 Line Check : +1 This flop is actually really dry and we bet it as though there's a ton to protect against. If we had AQo, for example, we would like to be able to c-bet this flop as cheaply as possible. Since it's pretty unlikely to have hit the villain's peeling range, we'd probably like to bet half-pot or even less. We'd also like to bet fairly small when we do have a big hand. If we have top-set here, we don't want to go lumping a full-pot bet in there because it's such a hard bet to call if the villain's holding a weak hand. We also can't induce the villain to bluff or semi-bluff with this big sizing. Considering it's a 3-bet pot, we don't even need to bet the flop big in order to build the pot. We've already built it up considerably pre-flop. All that said, we do actually get called on the flop by a hand we're beating and we presumably get called for this amount if the villain is holding just a Jack or some underpairs. If our bet-sizing is tailored to this opponent, then the flop bet is fine. However, we need to be wary that the flush comes in on the turn. At this stage, it's getting tough to be called down by those underpairs to the Jack (Particularly for such a large amount) and a lot of the hands that station us on the flop are the draws that just got there. There was a mention of balancing our range earlier. If we are making our c-bet bluffs on this type of board as big as full-pot to balance against our made hands, it implies that we're 3-betting pre-flop with a very narrow range. Otherwise we're paying way too much to bluff. Having that unbalanced 3-betting range is going to be very exploitable for good players.
Posted by BorinLoner[/QUOTE]

Yea this is one of those things that tend to forget when playing 12+ tables.....but your 100% spot on

77Chris91

Imo playing 12+ tables means your going to be playing tighter than optimal and missing way to many spots. In the short term it may be more profitable at 20nl however when you move up to 50/100nl the reg/fish ratio will be much higher. At these levels having balanced ranges becomes so much more important. 

F_Ivanovic

Betting pot is not exploitable if we are betting pot with our entire range. Sure, it makes it more expensive for our bluffs but we get more value when we do actually have a hand. One of the problems with this hand though is that you bet POT twice but then leave a river sizing that is slightly on the small side where we can only bet 42% of the pot. This leaves us with a pretty awkward decision OTR OOP whereby we need our shoving range to be weighted more towards value hands as opposed to bluffs; given the pot odds opponent has to call. If we bet 3/4 pot on flop and turn we leave bet sizing OTR much better whereby we don't necessarily need to be value heavy when shoving.

The second problem with pot betting (especially if it's not your usual sizing) is knowing how opponents will adjust to this bet size. In general villains are just going to give you credit and get out of the way; unless they actually have a hand. So when we pot this flop and get called we need to be somewhat concerned (especially on this turn card) that villain may have a better hand than us. His usual flop calling range may include some A high, some gutshot floats, FD's, middling pars, TP/OP and some sets (some of these hands he will raise mostly but occasionally will still flat) However, facing a pot bet he might alter his calling range to only TP/OP/sets/FD's. So when the turn comes a club and we pot bet we are now only beating QQ and Jx. (which may/may not) call a turn pot bet aswell.

If this is our normal sizing and we know opponents tendancies then the second problem becomes less of an issue; I think expecting 3 streets of value though is going to be somewhat optimistic and I would be c/f river unless I knew opponent was capable of turning some made hands into a bluff. Again you'll see why the sizing here became problamatic - you didn't want to c/f given the pot odds so you ended up just shoving and hoping somehow you were still best and opponent could call with worse.

One final (minor) point on this hand is regarding 3-bet size. It's probably a bit too small OOP when playing this deep especially if your 3-bet range is mostly a lot of value. Even if it does include a lot of bluffs though I would only size it this small if opponent was folding to 3-bets a lot. Given that he called with Q5s that probably isn't the case!

BorinLoner

Well no, c-betting full pot isn't exploitable if we do it with our entire range. What will be exploitable is doing this with too high a proportion of bluffs. Meaning if we don't want to be exploitable post-flop, we must have a very narrow pre-flop (3-betting) range. That will be exploitable by good players.

As I said, though, if we're making our c-bet full-pot because we're tailoring it to this particular opponent, then it's no problem at all.

I'd agree that the 3-bet sizing could be a little bigger, as we're OOP and nearly 200BBeff. We've gone to 10x over a 3x raise, though, so it's not too bad. I'd probably only go to 11x myself in this situation, player dependent of course. (Actually, I'd probably only go to 10x. I'd like myself to make it a tiny bit bigger. Don't think it's a major issue, really.)